If God is all-knowing...

[WesleyCarter]

Okay...
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, right? So he sees everything through all time. Each and all individual instants, everywhere, past, present and future.
So, when he created the Universe and Satan and humans, he must have known that it would all turn out the way it has so far. That means that everything is exactly as it was created to be, since he knew how everything would be when he made it.
With that in mind, do you really think he's going to submit people to eternal, unspeakable horror and pain for being exactly as they were made to be?

[Canuckster1127]

Okay...
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, right? So he sees everything through all time. Each and all individual instants, everywhere, past, present and future.
So, when he created the Universe and Satan and humans, he must have known that it would all turn out the way it has so far. That means that everything is exactly as it was created to be, since he knew how everything would be when he made it.
With that in mind, do you really think he's going to submit people to eternal, unspeakable horror and pain for being exactly as they were made to be?

Hi Wesley,

Welcome to the board. This is a pretty often made statement and is addressed many, many times in multiple posts here on the forum. I'd encourage you to do a little looking around even at some of the current threads and I think you'll find answers to your question. While you look take a look as well at our Board Purpose and Discussion Guidelines and those will help you understand how things operate here.

In view of that, although some may choose to anyway, I hope you'll understand if nobody jumps on answering your question. Some of this becomes a little repetative over time and it's not hard to find already existing conversations and answers by doing just a little searching on your own.

Again Welcome,

bart

[wrain62]

Okay...
1.God is all-powerful, all-knowing, right? So he sees everything through all time. Each and all individual instants, everywhere, past, present and future.
2.So, when he created the Universe and Satan and humans, he must have known that it would all turn out the way it has so far. That means that everything is exactly as it was created to be, since he knew how everything would be when he made it.
3.With that in mind, do you really think he's going to submit people to eternal, unspeakable horror and pain for being exactly as they were made to be?

I say
1.True
2. He may have created it a certain way for our foundational universe, but his knowledge of how everything turns out does not mean that he caused everything to go that way. There is a motif in this universe:
creation affects creation. Although he is all powerful, it does not mean he always uses his power but instead allows us to be responsible for the creation beside us. An allowance to be with God or separated from him is our gift from him as well
3. For being exactly as they were made to be? He did not make us to be without him. Our choice to be like him instead of with him is not made by him, and when we want to become like God it contradicts his soveriegn nature. Instead, well you know the rest.

Your problem may be with questioning the existence of our free will or with with something else, i don't know. Besides god know that everyone is bound to sin, but that does not make us without choice and this is where a big part of Christianity takes hold: in the idea of forgiveness.

A good way to look at it is...well what are the other possibilities?
i. We are made not to ever be allowed to be evil, or if evil was always an immediately inconvienient option... There would be no suffering. There would be no good either or the meaning of it would be diluted to meaning nothing at all. Rightiousness does not exist and therefore there is nothing to reward or be rejoicing about.
ii. We are allowed evil, but instead of being punished we all go to heaven and talk about our experiences and laugh it out. There would be no real distinction between rightiousness and wickedness and when there is no distinction then it is a contradictory concept.
iii. We are allowed evil, but instead the punishment is not that bad, like poofing into nonexistence getting a big repremand before we enter a place of nuetrality insted of eternal hell. This may be the best option of the three and is a point of tension because we all think: Why%20cause%20more%20suffering%20for%20something%20that%20already%20happened? I may need some help here but I will try to speculate some reasons why it may be this way. Hell is utter separation from God, and it is us who choose to be separated not him. Separation from God means that probably it is not him who is causing the suffering in that place, who knows. Also, any limitation to ultimate punishment(eternal separation) is a limitation to God's Soveriegnty and thus incoherent because God is all-powerful even though it seems like it contradicts his loving nature. To love is to be willing to sacrifice yourself for another person regardless of whether they deserve it or not. But if we refuse the offer, than we choose what should we expect or what meaning does a soul without God have since it's meaning is within it's purpose and it's purpose had failed on our own accord.

Christianity is the only religion that can coherently deal with this problem in a logical way I think. I don't take fancy classes in theology, logic, or philosophy but this is my view as I understand from connecting the dots in the meaning in the bible and listening to what intellectuals say on the subject.

[WesleyCarter]

He may have created it in a certain way for our foundational universe, but his knowledge for how it turned out does not mean he caused it to go that way.

Although he is all powerful, it does not mean he always uses his power.

But perfect knowledge DOES mean that he caused it and it does mean that we were meant to be this way. If he knew exactly how everything would be before setting it into motion, then sets it into motion anyway, then he must be perfectly jolly with it all, and that really throws a wrench into the idea that God gets angry. Why get angry at something that you caused unless it's an accident? An accident would mean imperfection.
Let's say that you sell guns. A man comes into your store and says that he needs something to kill his wife with. If you use your power to sell a gun to him, then you will be as responsible for her death as he is. If you don't sell the gun, but also neglect to use your power to call the police, you are still responsible. You caused that woman's death by not preventing it.

Also, doesn't the reward/punishment arrangement cheapen believers' actions? It seems to mean that people are acting certain ways out of fear and selfishness, and not of their own free will. Does that mean that if you believed God would reward you for helping to destroy entire races of people, you would do it just to get to heaven? Even if it seemed wrong in your heart?

[MarcusOfLycia]

What Bart said ^^^

You seem to be discussing a lot of topics including free will and God's omniscience, morality, omnipotence. Might be good to discuss one topic at a time, or look one up in the forums one at a time. These have been discussed before - many times here and many more times throughout history. Christians did spend a lot of time dwelling on these sorts of questions over the years (while remaining and even growing as Christians). Suffice to say that God allows mankind the freedom to choose, despite what He knows will happen, because His vision is a reality where our universe is a pinpoint of temporal existence against a canvas of eternity.

[wrain62]

First of all, I would like to invite you to read more upon theology and the bible. I myself only have a limited sense because I am not exactly well versed. But it seem people are tired of telking about the same thing over and over. I have been here only a few months and I saw about 4 people bring up this apparent dillema.

He may have created it in a certain way for our foundational universe, but his knowledge for how it turned out does not mean he caused it to go that way.

Although he is all powerful, it does not mean he always uses his power.

1.But perfect knowledge DOES mean that he caused it and it does mean that we were meant to be this way. If he knew exactly how everything would be before setting it into motion, then sets it into motion anyway, then he must be perfectly jolly with it all, and that really throws a wrench into the idea that God gets angry. Why get angry at something that you caused unless it's an accident? An accident would mean imperfection.
Let's say that you sell guns. A man comes into your store and says that he needs something to kill his wife with. If you use your power to sell a gun to him, then you will be as responsible for her death as he is. If you don't sell the gun, but also neglect to use your power to call the police, you are still responsible. You caused that woman's death by not preventing it.

2.Also, doesn't the reward/punishment arrangement cheapen believers' actions? It seems to mean that people are acting certain ways out of fear and selfishness, and not of their own free will. Does that mean that if you believed God would reward you for helping to destroy entire races of people, you would do it just to get to heaven? Even if it seemed wrong in your heart?

1.Why do you say that perfect knowledge means he causes our choices? Surley since he is eternal without beginning without end it is as if we had already made our choices to him and at the same time they are yet to come. Remember what I said before: creation affects creation. But I did not say why. In the book of Genesis there is the extraordinary idea that we are made in the image of God, and that Satan told a half-truth that by eatng the fruit we would become like gods. This is expressed in our spiritual nature and our ability to separate from him and his will.
"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
Dominion over the Earth's life would mean nothing if it was all just him all along. Then you may ask, if we have dominion over these life forms then how does God still have perfect knowledge? Well the only thing I know is that the bible suggests this, so I will ask, why not? Why do you say that perfect knowledge means he causes our choices?

Your analogy is not transferable. It would be my shared responsibility for a death that I complied with only because I have a duty to stop if I have knowledge(it is also my resposibility to be dilligently aware of such possibilities). However if you put God as the person who had the knowledge it would be totally different because he made it part of our purpose to be able choose evil so it would be contradictory if it was his moral duty to stop a murder and to make it a part of our purpose to let us choose between two polar oppsosites at the same time. As author of this world and it's possibilities it would not make sense for him to police it. Preventing the possibility of its happening could have been done at creation instead of during if really wanted to prevent a possibility. He created the possibility of evil for a reason and the same cannot be transferred to a person who is part of that reason.

2. Cheapen belivers' actions? Belief without love is not belief. If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)
The two great commandments that contain the whole law of God are:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.


This a takes more than fear and selfishness to do these actions man. It takes submission and humility in times where these possibilities are an inconvienence, thus it takes reverence intead of selfishness to recieve and truly believe in God and be rewarded in heaven.


"if you believed God would reward you for helping to destroy entire races of people, you would do it just to get to heaven? Even if it seemed wrong in your heart?"
I am going according to the bible-- the most reliable source of God's truth. It says that God's judgement is holy over and over again. So if a judgement is not holy, then he is not the author of it plain and simple. If you believe in God than you would know what is holy. Since the concept of mercy, love, and justice are inseparable to the concept of holiness in the bible God will not tell you to go against holiness in such judgement. If you are trying to hint at the Canaanite conquest in the bible then i would recommend you read some articles on this site or better yet take a look at Paul Copan's book
Is God a Moral Monster?. He has some videos on youtube as well.

I hope this is not all gibberish LOL

[WesleyCarter]

It is not gibberish, though I do take issue with a lot of what you say. The reason that I don't view the entire site is that I don't have a computer and my phone is so incredibly slow. I will revisit what you said when my thumbs stop hurting, as my phone doesn't have a qwerty keyboard and because of that, a single word takes a lot more keystrokes.
I will say that I'm a little more well-versed than most people, though I would by no means be considered an expert. I have read different versions of the entire New Testament over and over again, more than I can count, I've read a lot of other people's books, focusing mostly on Jesus, and I've read most of the Old Testament five or six times, though I've skipped some parts, such as the geneologies and certain other parts that get similarly, and in my opinion overly, detailed.
I do think that regardless of the likelihood of a creator, the Bible and other religious texts seem very unlikely, just feel wrong, and even smell a little sneaky.

[wrain62]

What strain it is to use your phone.

When I see this thread I see the problem of evil and the problem of free will vs. perfect knowledge and the two are intimately related.

Here is a good reply to the Epicurean Paradox or problem of evil just posted on this website by MarcusOfLycia
"Empty Lord,

You actually forgot a to add this to your list…

...Are your questions from Human Perspective or God’s perspective?

If God’s perspective you would have known that God secures things in threes: One - He set the Stage, Two- exposes what makes corrupt, Three - gets rid of corruption for good.

If Human perspective – its blame God for not doing Three first.

But How could 3 be first when the other two hadn’t happened yet?

Have a nice day…"

I know this is not your problem but I like its perspective. Maybe we can discuss more about your bible problems it would get me studying.

[Ivellious]

This question is, to me, one of the less-than-perfect parts about Christianity and the Bible.

The Bible rather clearly states that God is all-powerful (omnipotent). So, in essence, the Christian God can do anything with regards to space, matter, time, and beyond. He is also all-knowing according to the Bible (omniscient). God knows all that has been, all hat is, and all that will be. As far as I can tell, God knows everything from every perspective inside and out without fail.

The omniscience can be viewed in two broad ways: Presuming God gives everyone total free will and doesn't interfere with that free will, God knows the potential outcomes for every action that every free being on this Earth can take. Basically, he can experience every possible other dimension (from a physicist's standpoint) based on what we do. The other angle of looking at his omniscience is that God controls or has already determined how everything will happen, and he's basically watching a movie that he's seen an infinite number of times and is guaranteed not to change.

The problem with free-will and God's omniscience is that some Christians want to have it both ways. We have free-will, but God knows exactly what we will do with it? But then there is only one possible timeline...You can go on and on arguing that point in a circle and never really reach a new conclusion. As far as I can see, there really is no ultimate answer to this question in Christianity (or else there really shouldn't be any argument over it).

Now, the issue of whether God is responsible for us falls in the same train of thought as the viewpoint of omniscience. To me, either since biblical times God has taken a break from interfering with Earthly affairs and has left us on our own; or yes, indeed he made the course of history as it is and the suffering/problems of the world are just part of the equation he set up at the dawn of time.

Thoughts?

[jlay]

Also, doesn't the reward/punishment arrangement cheapen believers' actions? It seems to mean that people are acting certain ways out of fear and selfishness, and not of their own free will. Does that mean that if you believed God would reward you for helping to destroy entire races of people, you would do it just to get to heaven? Even if it seemed wrong in your heart?

I assume you are speaking of reward and punishment in terms of heaven and hell.
1st. Hell is not the reason to trust God. Truth is the reason. The truth will set you free, not a fear of Hell, or a desire to be in heaven.
The reality of Hell may and should cause someone to examine their life. Then they can find the truth of why they are heading there, and embrace the cure.
You seem to like analogies so let me run one by you. Let's say you have a terminal disease. Someone offers you the cure. You don't want to die, so you accept the cure. Is your life/health cheapened because you didn't want to die?
Were you simply being selfish?
We were created to desire life. I suppose that can be seen as selfish, but it can also open our eyes to see the truth and respond accordingly.

But perfect knowledge DOES mean that he caused it and it does mean that we were meant to be this way. If he knew exactly how everything would be before setting it into motion, then sets it into motion anyway, then he must be perfectly jolly with it all, and that really throws a wrench into the idea that God gets angry.

This is actually a good observation. I agree, God holds everything in his hand. God does know how everything will be. Where your anaysis breaks down is when you treat the God of creation as some regular person. Jolly? God isn't "Jolly" with it. The world is the way it is because everything that is happening, good, evil, etc., are working towards an end. You and I don't see that end. We see the now, and our perspective is warped because for the most part we are self-absorbed, selfish, egomaniacs who think God should comply to our wants and needs. So, let's say, as you imply, that God should prevent evil. What if that plan started with you? How would you fare? If God were to eliminate evil, would you be around to enjoy a cosmos without it? As for myself, I know that I would not be. I would be obliterated into nothingness. Further, how do we know God is not intervening to prevent evil. How do you know that the world could not be far more evil than it is now? You don't.

Finally, you say there is an idea that God GETS angry. God does not get anything. God is. He is imutable. That means He doesn't change, and therefore He doesn't react. Again, you fail because instead of elevating your thinking, you bring God down to your level. Emotional, unstable, fallible. etc. (don't worry, we are all that way)
The Bible will often use anthropomorphic language, which ascribes human qualities to God to better help us understand. The Bible says that God "is" angry with the wicked everyday. His anger, love, justice, mercy, etc, are the same at all times in all situations. He is always opposed to evil, and always pleased with righteousness. In other words, your lies, evil thoughts, and more were known to God before you came to be. Yet, somehow He allowed you to be, and in this play of life provided a way for you to be brought to the truth, and made right with Him, that you may partake in the perfection you seem to value. Not only that but that this God desires for you to come to the truth.

[Canuckster1127]

This question is, to me, one of the less-than-perfect parts about Christianity and the Bible.

The Bible rather clearly states that God is all-powerful (omnipotent). So, in essence, the Christian God can do anything with regards to space, matter, time, and beyond. He is also all-knowing according to the Bible (omniscient). God knows all that has been, all hat is, and all that will be. As far as I can tell, God knows everything from every perspective inside and out without fail.

The omniscience can be viewed in two broad ways: Presuming God gives everyone total free will and doesn't interfere with that free will, God knows the potential outcomes for every action that every free being on this Earth can take. Basically, he can experience every possible other dimension (from a physicist's standpoint) based on what we do. The other angle of looking at his omniscience is that God controls or has already determined how everything will happen, and he's basically watching a movie that he's seen an infinite number of times and is guaranteed not to change.

The problem with free-will and God's omniscience is that some Christians want to have it both ways. We have free-will, but God knows exactly what we will do with it? But then there is only one possible timeline...You can go on and on arguing that point in a circle and never really reach a new conclusion. As far as I can see, there really is no ultimate answer to this question in Christianity (or else there really shouldn't be any argument over it).

Now, the issue of whether God is responsible for us falls in the same train of thought as the viewpoint of omniscience. To me, either since biblical times God has taken a break from interfering with Earthly affairs and has left us on our own; or yes, indeed he made the course of history as it is and the suffering/problems of the world are just part of the equation he set up at the dawn of time.

Thoughts?

This probably coming from another direction than what your thinking and this applies more to the epistemology of these questions, but a lot of what you're discussing here would in the past have been described as scholasticism which historically adopts some form of philisophical/theological framework and then applies logic and inference from premises drawn from Scripture to come to conclusions or answer questions that the Scripture when read in larger portions doesn't address directly. The classic example of this is the old saw, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Comprehending God in these areas and by these methods are only going to be as effective as those methods are accurate in capturing the full reality of God.

Often times the "conflicts" that then can be brought about within these patterns when they're extended out to their extremes can be semantically engineered to produce contradictions or the methods themselves can in fact lead to contradictions. Why is it then, just as a question back to you, that when people ask questions about these seeming contradictions or difficult questions that these questions always presume that the issue they're raising finds its contradiction in God and not the epistemological framework that they are using to approach the issue?

[jlay]

Why is it then, just as a question back to you, that when people ask questions about these seeming contradictions or difficult questions that these questions always presume that the issue they're raising finds its contradiction in God and not the epistemological framework that they are using to approach the issue

Ooooohh. Now there is a question. Bart, I was so close to stating something similar in my post. But there were so many things being brought up in the OP, that I deleted. Great question, BTW.

What's wrong with God? versus, What's wrong with me?
Kind of like the old objection regarding suffering. The human response is, "why doesn't God....?" "How can God.....?"
Instead of, "What is wrong between God and man/me?"

[Ivellious]

If all you're going to do is pull out the "My religion/God is just way too awesome/complex/great for you to comprehend so your logic is invalid" argument, then there's really no point in discussing anything, I guess...

[puritan lad]

If all you're going to do is pull out the "My religion/God is just way too awesome/complex/great for you to comprehend so your logic is invalid" argument, then there's really no point in discussing anything, I guess...

Ivellious,

Check this out:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 19&t=36724

[Canuckster1127]

You don't have an answer for that Ivellious? That's a standard question that needs to be addressed whether your worldview is theistic or atheistic. Were you here to have a conversation or is this just a platform for you to attack and avoid questions you can't answer?