catholics/christians

[Mastermind]

MM, again you fail to understand me! It's frustrating! Please stop! Crying or Very sad
Besides, it's bad debate form to skim over the other's points and so draw wrong conclusions. I'm talking about apples, and you respond by talking about oranges. It doesn't work like that! And I don't want to have to defend my logic in this paragraph after another response of poor logic and assumptions. I guess I'm asking for it by what I've written though!

yes, I know you want a point by point rebuttal of your arguments, but I'm not going to do that, simply because I'm tired of rebuking a point you've already tried to make over and over and over. My latest posts really only had a passing mention at yours. They were not rebuttals of any kind. I fail to see the "bad logic" in them.

[tarreyl]

dan

matthew 7
verse 8
for everyone who ask, receives. Everyone who who seeks, finds, And the door is opened to everyone who knocks,

matthew 7
verse 9
you parents- if your children ask for a loaf of bread,do you give them a stone instead

matthew 7
verse 10
or if they ask for a fish, dou you give them a snake ? of course not

john 6
verse 51
i am the living bread that came down out of heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever, this bread is my flesh , offered so that this world may live."

john 6
verse 56
all those who eat my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and i in them

john 6
verse 58
i am the true bread from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever and not die as ancestor did, even though they ate the manna."

so why can you only eat it if you are catholic ? and have to be confiremed
by the catholic church? to eat and drink the bread and wine of Jesus. Did jesus say to paul the christen killer and paul the denier of jesus and judas the betrayer jesus gave them the wine even though they were not great aposlte how is it fare to say who can and cant eat the bread and wine ?
is it the catholic belive to decide who cant and can did jesus say before he died who cant and can eat the bread and wine? no he said that everyone has the right to eat the bread and wine. other christen groups you dont have to be confiremed in that church or in that church to eat and drink the bread and wine. So why is it that in the catholic church you have to be confirmed and be a catholic to eat the bread and drink the wine of god what right do the catholics have. WERE IN YOUR RCC DOES SAY WHO CAN AND CAN'T EAT THE BREAD AND DRINK THE WINE IN THE CATHOLIC BIBLE.

[Felgar]

I have a suggestion, that maybe we would do better focussing on a single doctrine and discussing that...

Right now it's like we're WWII machine-gunners taking aim at Catholics, and in the end the questions don't get the responses that they deserve.

I dunno, just a thought.

[bizzt]

Back to buisness!

Okay, first of all, how do these people who know so little about God know that they can trust that particular denomination? That defies logic! Again, (and again, and again, and... what's this MM? Oh, and again!) what matters is not what people "LIKE" but what's true and in accordane to how God works and His nature. If people need the help you mention, they should be able to get it from just about any Christian who's not a baby Christian anymore.

May I ask then... What Denomination is good? How did Paul put it? Don't Follow ME (denomination) but Follow the one saved me! (not a true biblical quote but you get the idea) ... RCC has many different thoughts in their doctrine however they still are a Church that believes in Christ who died and resurrected 3 days later. Take a look at Pentecostal, Baptist any Churches Doctrines and you will notice some pretty wonked out Doctrines

They don't, and shouldn't, have to have their hands held every Sunday for the rest of their lives. When you're a new Christian you should be instructed in how to begin your own relationship with God where, along with help from other Christians, you get most of your direction from God Himself, (and that mainly from the Bible, the ultimate handbook on how to be a Christian.) And these instructions or teachings should be simply teachings in the form of shepherding.

I think the RCC teaching is kind of cool in a way at least in 3 years a person will have the ENTIRE Bible read to them!

Misunderstanding! I asked: "why in such a drone-like, lifeless way anyway?" I meant their voices. Do you talk to your friends in a monotone way? No? Then why in the world talk to God like that? That's what I meant by saying, "drone-like." Those practices come from the minds of men.

Kate just because one talks in a Monotone voice does not mean that they are Drone-like. I know many Teachers who talk that way when they are excited .

Jesus never said, "repeat what I say," He said to use the prayer He provided as an example as a general guideline for your own prayers. As for biblical proof, I'm afraid the only I currently have is the nature of how Jesus meant it. This is clear from the text itself as far as I'm concerned. I highly doubt that you could provide much better proof for you own interpretation though, but if you have it please share.

I fail to understand where this part is coming from. Must of missed it somewhere

Again, it's not what I "want" that matters, as we both agree, but what is true. This statement I will not comment on further because frankly, it's a nasty attack.

ummm how come the way we Pray or the way a certain person Prays is wrong. Is there a TRUE way of Praying?

You're putting words in my mouth about baptism. I didn't say water baptism was required for spiritual baptism, I just said that while you are baptised in water, Jesus Christ is baptising you with the Holy Spirit. He can baptise you without the physical baptism.

First a Response to this... He can Baptise you with the Holy spirit while baptising you with Water but that is not always the Case.

Glad you believe they're separate, but it's still not what your words portrayed, even in this second statement. However, as I quoted the Catechism on, this is not the official stance of the RCC.

I must of missed it again

Yes it does, faith without works is dead.

Yet turn that around and you get Works without Faith is also Dead!!

So do you believe that you have to do good works in addition to having faith in order to get to heaven? And if so, please provide ample biblical proof, (I've already posted on this thread my own share.)

Works will not save you but your faith is known by what?

I think this ONE scripture sums it up but the rest are FYI
Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


Take care

[LittleShepherd]

Personally, I don't believe the RCC is in any way part of the "Body of Christ" that is the church, though I do believe some individuals within it are Christians who just don't know any better. I strongly believe that the RCC is the "Great Whore" spoken of in the book of Revelations.

The following are some links concerning cults(the first link) and the RCC in detail, especially concerning its relationship to Biblical prophecy:
http://abandonware.com/Documents/Church_Desk/Cults.htm
http://abandonware.com/Documents/Bible_ ... ipture.htm
http://abandonware.com/Documents/Bible_ ... _part2.htm

I find it alarming that the RCC and the city of Rome fit every last one of the Biblical prophecies concerning Mystery Babylon, the Great Whore of Revelations. Especially since my mother was raised in it. My greatest desire right now if for her to throw off the chains of Catholicism that have done nothing but make her a miserable, ritualistic person who has no hope or peace, and for her to come to Christ and have a real, personal relationship with Him.

As I've also stated, I don't have a problem with the idea that some members of the RCC individually have come to Christ in spite of the great corruption and deceit. I do, however, have some difficulty understanding why anyone who has come to Christ would choose to remain a "member" of the RCC. Jesus said that man cannot serve two masters, and to me there is no greater example of this than a Roman Catholic Christian. While I understand that change can be uncomfortable, no good can come of trying to be a member of the "bride" and the "whore" at the same time.

I remember one discussion on RCC policies came to Martin Luther, and I believe his story is one example that the RCC cannot ever truly be changed from within. To try to do so is, as history has shown, useless. Luther wanted to change the RCC from within, but God had other plans. He ended up being ejected from the RCC, and was responsible for the Protestant Reformation that brought new hope in Christ to people worldwide.

My advice to anyone in the RCC who claims to have that personal relationship with Jesus is this -- read Revelations chapters 17 - 19, study them, pray for the truth to be revealed, and when the truth finally hits you run away from the RCC as fast as you can and never look back, even if doing so is uncomfortable and scary.

[Felgar]

One issue I have with that stance LS, is would God really allow His church to die for over 1000 years? I mean, there must have been a great many honest, God-fearing people to have lived from about 300-1500, surely God had ample opportunity to do His work through them, so why were we left with the RCC?

I just can't accept that there was no truth at all on Earth for over 1000 years.

[kateliz]

Little Shepherd! I had been wondering where you went and why you didn't join in while this thread was on fire! I was hoping you would! And now you have, and I'm glad. I've heard for years, (first of all from my dad,) of the RCC being the Great Whore, and my dad would claim with disgust, (he had a cold heart,) that the Antichrist will be a Pope. Now, of course if he had known better he would've said the False Prophet. I used to somewhat enthusiastically agree with this, but I always wondered if it wasn't something other than the RCC. I was presented with no real biblical proof but only speculations. After a few years of vaguely thinking on this issue I felt that Babylon the Great would be the historical city of Babylon, and even recently when the US went to war with Iraq I was a little excited about that allowing the End Times Babylon to come into existence and for the ball to get rolling with that. Not too long after that I gave up all claims to knowing what Babylon the Great was, and have been like that possibly up to this day.

I really liked the second link you put out; it's purely biblical and explains things in a logical manner that are altogether believable. I think I may be leaning towards the RCC being the only biblical acceptable Whore because of that. I didn't realize before that the Bible states that the city and the Whore were both to have existed for so many years. I expected for awhile that new things would have to rise up and become these things, but now I see that's unbiblical. I think I'm beginning to take a firm hold of this interpretation I've suspected for so long. Thank you for the link, Little Shepherd! And also for being so straight-forward and unflinching!

Felgar, He didn't leave us all in their hands- there were always small groups that held to the truth in the Bible and understood that the RCC didn't. He also had some chosen people through whom He did great things that were devoted to the RCC their whole lives, (despite having greivances with it.) The RCC persecuted these small groups because it was so power-hungry and controlling. I will list some of them: Paulicians, Bogomils, Waldenses, Albigenses, Lollards, Hussites, the United Brethren, and the Anabaptists. I'm pulling these names from the Contents section of the book I recommended in another thread recently, The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent, published by Gospel Folio Press. I read about half of that book a year ago or so and so I don't remember really anything of them, except for the Lollards because I've studied their "founder" John Wesley a little. Awesome man of God, he was!

[LittleShepherd]

Hey, Kate! Yeah, I haven't visited this place in a while. And you're right -- except when talking with my own mother, I'm pretty unflinching on my stance. I figure that it'll eventually come up with her, too, but I'm hoping that by then she'll have experienced true freedom in Christ, and will be able to see things with the Holy Spirit to guide her in truth.

And yeah, there are a couple things in the Bible that show that the "Great Whore of Babylon" won't actually be the ancient city of Babylon. First, the Bible states that Babylon will never rise again. Some publications make it sound like Saddam Hussein rebuilt Babylon, but all he really did was build a few palaces for himself and some friends. That's hardly a great city. Another important thing is that when the "Babylon" of Revelations burns, it must be visible from the Mediterranean Sea. Babylon wouldn't be; Rome would.

The real secret behind Rome being the city of Mystery Babylon is in the Roman Catholic Church's origin. It is actually the blending of two very different religions into one that happened early in the 4th century. There is a mother-child cult that can be traced all the way from ancient Babylon, where it started with the wife of King Nimrod and her son.

She claimed divinity for herself and her son, and even claimed that he rose from the dead at one point. Later on, as the cult moved through the Medo-Persion empire and the Roman empire, it also tacked on a sun deity named Ishtar. Such holidays as Lent and Easter(Ishtar) actually originated from this cult. The holiday of Ishtar was associated with fertility, which is why bunnies and eggs have always been associated with it.

In the early 300s, there arose a new emperor of Rome, and he took the title of Caesar for himself. I have no idea why he did it, but he declared the mother-child cult that was one of the most prominent religions in the empire to be Christianity. I suspect he did this due to Christianity's growing popularity(if you can't beat them...declare everybody one so it doesn't matter anymore). With one word, almost everyone in the Roman Empire was considered a Christian. No confession of sins, knowledge of Christ, or trusting of Him as lord and savior necessary.

Since learning of this cult, and the dubious origins of the RCC, I've come to view certain holidays differently. I won't be celebrating Lent anytime soon, and will probably take to referring to Easter as Passover, since that's...well, that's what it is if you really think about it. I won't be coloring eggs or buying chocolate bunnies anymore, and I'll make sure that my household knows what the holiday is really about. I'll also make clear that Christ died on Wednesday evening, which was actually considered Thursday since the Jewish day began at sundown(not midnight). And that this Thursday was in fact the Jewish passover day(truly, God has perfect timing and perfect control of everything).

Oh, and yes -- Kate said it all, really. The church, which is the body and bride of Christ, never really died, and was alive and well throughout this entire period. It just didn't experience the same widespread influence(out in the open, anyway) that it once had until the Protestant Reformation. I personally feel that this is just a reprieve, and only the "Western" world has really experienced this reprieve(though the whole world has benefitted second-hand). Persecution of Christians never stopped in many non-western countries, and at least 100,000 Christians are killed every year in these places for the simple crime of being Christian.

[jakelo]

Its sickening how people can twist something as good as the Catholic religion and turn it into something ugly. LittleSheperd, who are you to judge Catholics and all out say that Catholics are going to hell. That the Catholic religion is the Whore mentioned in the bible. The links you providing were steaming of hatred for the church. Obviously you choose biased information to unbiased. I wanted to give you some links so you can actually learn something about the Catholic church but I don't even want to waste my time with attempting to open your eyes. Your heart and mind are closed and it'll take a miracle to open them. In no way am I saying that Catholicsm is better than any other religion. I support every other denomination (Baptist, protestant, etc..) in Christianity as much as I support Catholicsm. To support some over others would be ignorant because they are ALL Christian. Its sad that people would really see the Pope as the Antichrist, obviously some of you don't even bother to listen to what he speaks about. Obviously some of you don't even want to see the influence he has on other countries. If you knew anything TRUE about the Catholic church, you would realize that in NO WAY do we praise saints or worship the virgin mary. Those that do are misled and are in for a rude awakening. I could go on forever but I'm done. Like I said, its sickening how ignorant and hateful people can be.

In Christ,

jakelo

[LittleShepherd]

Remember one thing -- the greatest deceptions are often the most appealing and seemingly good. Satan himself appears as an Angel of light, but from Revelations we see that his true form is that of a hideous multi-headed serpent thing, and that he is full of nothing but deceit. Remember, if it didn't look good(in fact, I was tempted to become Catholic for a while when I was younger), it wouldn't be a very good deception.

As for condeming all Catholics to hell, I did no such thing. But I can say without flinching, and without judging, that all Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. are going to hell unless they repent and turn to Christ -- this isn't because I'm condemning them; it's because the <B>Bible</B> says that they are condemned already. All I'm doing is firing warning flares. I even went so far as to say that Catholics can turn to Christ in spite of their unbiblical doctrines, but that it's sad they would choose to continue to serve the RCC when this happens.

As for the RCC being the Great Whore of Babylon, I've seen a lot of stuff written on the RCC, and none of it has convinced me yet that it's anything but that. You also forget that my own <B>mother</B> is a fairly adamant follower of the Roman Catholic religion, and that I grew up with knowledge of the Roman Catholic faith. She claims to be a follower of Christ when questioned, but being around her all the time it's obvious to me that she has no hope, joy, or peace. It just goes to show that you can have all the faith in the world, and it doesn't make any difference if you place it in the wrong thing.

And who said anything about the Pope being Antichrist? I remember someone saying that they wouldn't be surprised if the Antichrist happened to come from the Papacy(It is Biblical that he's supposed to be a really swell-seeming guy with promises of peace and whatnot)...but that's something wholly different than claiming an actual Pope is the Antichrist. Personally, I consider the Popes to be men of great, misplaced faith, in a position to lead other people of misplaced faith in order to further the agenda of a false religion that bears little resemblance to the Christianity presented in the Bible.

If you're looking for hatred and judgment, I'm afraid you'll have to look somewhere else. I have the same desire for Catholics as I do for all other non-Christians -- that they would come to know Christ, have a personal relationship with Him, and above all that they would come to know the great freedom that comes from being a follower of Christ. And I have a great desire for all Christians who choose to remain faithful to the RCC -- that they would come to know the truth of Revelations 17-19, and that they would stand up and reclaim the freedom that is rightfully theirs, which they cannot fully experience in bondage to the unbiblical and antibiblical traditions of the RCC.

[jakelo]

Ok, now I've gotten a good night's sleep and I'm not mad anymore . I apologize if I thrashed out at you, LittleSheperd. I was already in a bad mood and reading your post didn't help.

I read from some site, I don't know if it was yours, that the Papacy was the AntiChrist, that is why I misquoted you. I apologize for that.

LittleSheperd, I don't understand it, but, it seems like my local church is much different from everyone elses. At every mass we are reminded of His great sacrifice and how we should live everyday to glorify Him. I must be different from every Catholic around me or something, because I don't worship the virgin mary and I don't worship the saints. I don't care to pray to them or ask them for guidance. I pray to God and only God. Eventhough I am Catholic, I don't support baptism of infants, I never have, I never will. That is a doctrine in the Catholic church that I don't agree with. Who knows, maybe you're right about the Catholic church being this whore of the Bible, we won't know until His Coming. But frankly, I don't care, I gave myself to Christ and I accepted Him as my Savior. I don't place my faith in the Catholic Church, I place my faith in Christ. As far as I can tell, I think I'm doing what I should be doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kurieuo]

I'm not Roman Catholic, but I've met Catholics with a good understanding of Christian beliefs, and ones I'm sure value their relationship with Christ just as much as the most Christian Protestant. I also find many lay Catholics who tend to have a very basic to near no understanding about their Christian beliefs other than certain traditions and dogmas within the RCC, who dive for the religion but who do not understand the real importance of Christ and seem spiritually dead.

I think the important thing is to not label people within any one denomination as all the same. You have many varieties of Catholics as you do Protestants, and I personally hate categorising people as it can unnecessarily create barriers and conflict. It is much better and takes more effort to listen to and understand someone on their own terms, rather than through our preconceptions of a particular group they may associate with. And from what I witness through the board, I would accept jakelo as a Roman Catholic who would be saved. Yet, my only protest would be that I believe many stumbling blocks to actually finding Christ on a personal level lay within the Catholic way of things.

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

I completely agree with Kurieuo.

[kateliz]

I believe many stumbling blocks to actually finding Christ on a personal level lay within the Catholic way of things.

This is what Little Shepherd means, and why many people readily accept that the RCC is the Great Whore. I don't believe any of us here who think the RCC is harmful would lump all of it's members together and say that they are as bad as the whole religion is. What we are saying, and what I've tried to clarify before, is that the official doctrines, theologies and practices of the RCC are unbiblical, (or antibiblical as LS rightly claimed,) and very harmful. It is this that we are so against. And we recognize that not all Catholics are in complete agreement with the official stance, as jakelo has so adequately pointed out. Btw, the change in him between those posts was absolutely shocking! I like the well-rested, level-headed jakelo much better!

And let me point out that the whole idea of the Pope being the Antichrist came from my posts, and I was just telling of how my dad believed that, (he's in paradise now.)

As for the pagan origins of religious holidays, I'm in agreement with LS! I considered a few years ago not celebrating these, but concluded that I really wasn't and so I can still participate in my family traditions with them. I'm okay with coloring eggs and the chocolate bunny thing because I view it soley as fun things to do with my family. We have had egg hunts in the yard nealy every year of my life. I used to feel guilty about not celebrating these in my heart, but I've come to see that God doesn't expect that from me. I worship Christ as the Christ-Child, Crucified One and Risen One every day, so what more do I need? I don't have to muster up all of my feelings about these things on a certain days of the year! How guilty I used to feel because I couldn't! That's legalism, if you ask me. Now I use these holidays simply as a means of getting my family together and spending time with them. I don't give gifts at Christmas in response to God's gift of Christ to me, I give out a loving heart. I've come to accept the "secular" view of these holidays in that way, and funny as it is, I believe that is the true Christian response! I don't feel inclined to celebrate Passover though. No religious holidays hold a place in my heart like that- as I've said I celebrate them every day.

[jakelo]

Hi everyone. Thanks for not being angry with me, I can get pretty difficult to deal with sometimes, my friends don't call me "sassy sauceman" for nothing. ("sauce" is a part taken from my last name). Again, I want to sincerely apologize to LittleSheperd and to everyone else on this board that experienced my minor explosion. The stresses of finals can get to you , but that still isn't an excuse. I'll be sure to be more mature on discussions such as this. Again I apologize, and I have to go, have a major test to study for