If God is all-knowing...

[WesleyCarter]

Hi, everybody. Thanks for talking!
I go away for a couple of days because of time constraints and now have lots more to respond to! I'm a big fan of active forums.
I was just intending to check up on this and go to bed without responding, but I wanted yous to know that I didn't ditch and like the continued discussion.
I will reply, especially because it seems that I'm misunderstood, which is great, and goodnight.

[BoniPastoris]

With that in mind, do you really think he's going to submit people to eternal, unspeakable horror and pain for being exactly as they were made to be?

No, because god is Not Evil, vindictive or hurtful. I believe that given enough time any person can repent, change, evolve,reform,differ or at least become a different person.(one who is maybe capable of fulfilling change) Change is a fact of life, If there is life after life then change will still be a fact because a varied life is a fun life. I would prefer if you thought that there is always hope, even in the outer darkness the good news can still be heard above the noise from those with the courage to stand up and fight a winning battle rather than lose an already lost one.

[Ivellious]

But the issue isn't just that there are warm and fuzzy stories when you look for them, it's how God can justify the horror going on here on earth. Again, my point was that he either created the Earth like this and it's his plan/his doing, or we have total free will and he just lets it happen despite being capable of stopping it. You're point is just beating around that harsh topic.

[avisin]

Let's take a different angle at this, shall we? Let's start with the some truisms I think we can all agree upon, yes?

God created everything that exists.
Evil is not a thing and so, therefore, can't be created
Satan is Evil incarnate
God Created Satan

Now, did God create Satan with the intention that he would tempt Adam and Eve? Whether you believe in predestination or not, this is, I believe, an inescapable point. God may not have created evil but he DID create Satan. If Satan were not who he was created to be, Adam and Eve never would have been tempted and thus would never have fallen into sin.

Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

[Danieltwotwenty]

Let's take a different angle at this, shall we? Let's start with the some truisms I think we can all agree upon, yes?

God created everything that exists.
Evil is not a thing and so, therefore, can't be created
Satan is Evil incarnate
God Created Satan

Now, did God create Satan with the intention that he would tempt Adam and Eve? Whether you believe in predestination or not, this is, I believe, an inescapable point. God may not have created evil but he DID create Satan. If Satan were not who he was created to be, Adam and Eve never would have been tempted and thus would never have fallen into sin.

Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

Satan possessed freewill the same way we possess it, it was ours and satans choice to reject God's love but God gave us a way out through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross ( that is how much he loves us ).
Did God know that we would make bad choices, he sure did and because of his love he provided a way out.
Please tell me a better scenario where God could create creatures with a freewill that were unable to sin?

Dan

[kmr]

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way. Is the fact that we rebelled against God necessarily a bad thing, in the end? God obviously would have known what we would do, try thinking of a reason why he would allow it to be so.

[neo-x]

by avisin » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:30 pm

Let's take a different angle at this, shall we? Let's start with the some truisms I think we can all agree upon, yes?

God created everything that exists.
Evil is not a thing and so, therefore, can't be created
Satan is Evil incarnate
God Created Satan

Now, did God create Satan with the intention that he would tempt Adam and Eve? Whether you believe in predestination or not, this is, I believe, an inescapable point. God may not have created evil but he DID create Satan. If Satan were not who he was created to be, Adam and Eve never would have been tempted and thus would never have fallen into sin.

Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

God did not predestine Satan. He was an angel like the rest, he chose to rebel and he did. I mean you could even argue why did God made anything if it was all gonna go down...lol...at least correct your suppositions before you put up a question. It would only be a valid question to someone who is hardcore militant determinist. And except for idiots like WBC, Im not sure much ppl believe it here, and even if some do, they does not reflect the nature of God.

[wrain62]

by avisin » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:30 pm

Let's take a different angle at this, shall we? Let's start with the some truisms I think we can all agree upon, yes?

God created everything that exists.
Evil is not a thing and so, therefore, can't be created
Satan is Evil incarnate
God Created Satan

Now, did God create Satan with the intention that he would tempt Adam and Eve? Whether you believe in predestination or not, this is, I believe, an inescapable point. God may not have created evil but he DID create Satan. If Satan were not who he was created to be, Adam and Eve never would have been tempted and thus would never have fallen into sin.

Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

God did not predestine Satan. He was an angel like the rest, he chose to rebel and he did. I mean you could even argue why did God made anything if it was all gonna go down...lol...at least correct your suppositions before you put up a question. It would only be a valid question to someone who is hardcore militant determinist. And except for idiots like WBC, Im not sure much ppl believe it here, and even if some do, they does not reflect the nature of God.

I think he did predestine the possibility, and the spontanious ability of evil to erupt.

[avisin]

Satan had a free will to choose? Did he, really?

You see, even if Satan had the free will to choose, you can't escape the fact that God knew before the instant of creation what Satan would choose and what the future ramifications would be. How then can one call God a loving and just god if He could doom billions to eternal torture. It makes the concept that God does not tempt mere sophistry, an obfuscation, a lie. The fact of the matter is, He did tempt, or caused/allowed to be tempted, Adam and Eve, and in that one act of permissiveness, doomed every human being who would ever draw breath to death.

You see, it is that foreknowledge which cuts into the 'free will' argument every time.

Why didn't the other two thirds of the angels also rebel? What was different about them which made them choose differently? One could easily argue, and have a strong case, that because NOTHING exists except that God created it or approved/allowed it, those angels who didn't rebel did not because they were not created to do so. They did not have with in them the seed of doubt, of pride, which would grow into rebellion.

[jlay]

How then can one call God a loving and just god if He could doom billions to eternal torture.

Define love.
And when you are done, define eternal torture.

He did tempt, or caused/allowed to be tempted, Adam and Eve, and in that one act of permissiveness, doomed every human being who would ever draw breath to death.

God permitted the temptation. But you've yet to demonstrate how forknowledge makes God the author of temptation. When I had a child, I foreknew that being a parent would bring me times of heartache. I knew at some point my child would disobey. I know that my child will be tempted. Did I create the disobedience and the temptation.

How does forknowledge prevent freewill? While we arre at it, you might want to define freewill. You will find that many have different ideas when you even mention the word, "freewill." So, it's important to make sure we are all on the same page in how the terms are being defined. That way when we answer, we know we aren't wasting each other's time.

Some people say God can do anything. But even God says this isn't so. God can not lie. And God can not create Himself. One of God's qualities is aseity. By nature an He can not create a being that possesses aseity. The concept would be self-defeating. Yes, God has foreknowledge. If you really want to break this down we have what I would call, an expert. If Jac would be so kind as to jump in.

[Kurieuo]

With that in mind, do you really think he's going to submit people to eternal, unspeakable horror and pain for being exactly as they were made to be?

Let's take a different angle at this, shall we? Let's start with the some truisms I think we can all agree upon, yes?

God created everything that exists.
Evil is not a thing and so, therefore, can't be created
Satan is Evil incarnate
God Created Satan

Now, did God create Satan with the intention that he would tempt Adam and Eve? Whether you believe in predestination or not, this is, I believe, an inescapable point. God may not have created evil but he DID create Satan. If Satan were not who he was created to be, Adam and Eve never would have been tempted and thus would never have fallen into sin.

Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

If God exists, what makes you think he would care. Do you think twice about killing a cockroach or even an ant?

The natural assumption is to think God is all-loving, because the Western world is largely influenced by Christianity and as such a very personal God who desires to have a relationship with us individually and collectively. Yet in Islam, it horrifies many to even consider God would associate with humanity so much as to come in human form. Such is to lower God's sovereignty too much that He would even do such a thing. It's as ludicrous or foolish as us deciding to become a cockroach (if we could) to have a relationship with some roaches.

If one is asking the question you are of God and hell, and we (Christians) give the embedded assumptions full credit, then the question I guess I'd ask back is "so what"? Thinking God is such a way, should I then close my eyes to God's wrath or take the vaccine God offers in Christ? If I'm crossing the road and some crazy person decided to try run me down, should I just close my eyes to the impending danger because I don't think it's right or should I jump to safety?

Perhaps some think it smart to reject God on the grounds He is in all probability a sadist. But, given the enormous power God must wield, I'd prefer so much more to be on God's good side if He's a sadist than an all-loving God who desires mercy. So where does that leave the point of such a question?

[Jayscience]

All of the postings I see on here suggest that we with out a doubt have all of Gods vision for us in the Bible. I will say I believe it to be the inspired word of God, I don't think it covers everything. I also wonder if what we have is even all of it, the early church took things out, and put things in. The leader back then disided what would remain, and what would go according to there agenda. This may account for some of these problems that are hard to solve. Lets face it the Romans took over this religon in order to continue there cause of domination of the world. So to think that we have all of Gods thoughts here is kind of shallow thinking. I suggest turning to God in prayer will help answer these questions far better then looking at the Bible which we know doesn't answer these types of questions.
James 1:5,
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

He clearly says to ask him to fill in the blanks for us. He will guide you to the truth, that is something no one can take away from you, except for you.

Any thoughts on that?

[jlay]

Thanks for visiting Jay,

First I would point out that your point kind of lights its own fuse.

In other words, you undermine the authenticity and reliability of scripture and then quote it to defend your position.
That isn't to dismiss some of your points.
James 1:5 does tell us to ask for wisdom. I just question how wise it is to poopoo the very source of that saying. Perhaps the wisest thing to do is to seek out whether or not the Bible is the the final, reliable, revelation. If not, then quoting it is a bit self-defeating.

[B. W.]

...Which begs the following questions: "How can one claim God is a god of love when the very people he created were doomed from the outset to fail BECAUSE of the stumbling block He placed in their paths?" "How can one say God does not tempt when it was His creation (Him knowing full well who and what Satan was because God created him that way) which was the instrument (and God the Architect) of the original temptation?"

Before anyone responds, please consider that the fate of peoples immortal soul is at stake here. This is a VERY serious question and deserves a serious, well thought out, logical and supportable response. Responses like "My God is just too big to fully understand doesn't cut it here."

If God took your own ability of free moral agency away in exercising wisdom pertaining to the ways of life you are endowed with – how could that be honestly and absolutely loving and just?
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[Jayscience]

Thanks for visiting Jay,

First I would point out that your point kind of lights its own fuse.

In other words, you undermine the authenticity and reliability of scripture and then quote it to defend your position.
That isn't to dismiss some of your points.
James 1:5 does tell us to ask for wisdom. I just question how wise it is to poopoo the very source of that saying. Perhaps the wisest thing to do is to seek out whether or not the Bible is the the final, reliable, revelation. If not, then quoting it is a bit self-defeating.

You miss understand what I mean here. First of all I do think there are other inspired works out there,yes. I do not challange the Bibles truth, but I'm not so sure we have all of it. There was a time when people couldn't look at it there selves, and Popes had the right to include or disclude what they wanted. This could account for why all the dots don't match up so well. Like a car manual that is missing 20 pages, the content is still true but it would be able to answer all you questions. My point is that this topic can't be answered because God didn't give us that information or it has been lost. So the only way to get an answer is to ask God, he is still there and he does guide us.