If the Bible is inerent, and more

ultimate777 · Post by **ultimate777** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:06 am

Does it ever seem to you if the Bible is inerent there are millions of people walking the Earth that are more moral than God? If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

Another thing: Can God make something good or evil by just deciding it will be so?

musician · Post by **musician** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:20 am

ultimate777 wrote: If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

I think you should, because I have no idea what you mean, and don't agree to boot.

- N

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:27 am

It would depend how you define "inerracy." People often mean different things when using that term so you have to nail it down.

As to whether God declares something Good or Evil by an act of his will, that depends upon how you view and define the sovereignty of God. A position of Strong Sovereignty to the point of Divine Determinism almost has to take that point of view because the logical extension of that position is that God is the author of sin and evil (although most of that mindset don't take things to that length instead trying to find a way to maintain absolute determinism while letting God off the hook, as it were.)

A position of Weak Sovereignty holds that God has a permissive will as well as a decretive will. In that context, then no, God doesn't arbitrarily declare things good or evil. God cannot and doesn't act contrary to His nature and God will not define things contrary to His nature. God's ominpotence and other attributes don't allow God to act consistent with an absurdity. The old saws such as "Can God make a rock so big even He cannot lift it?" or "If God is all powerful can He then sin?" are based in semantics and rhetoric, not reality.

ultimate777 · Post by **ultimate777** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:00 pm

musician wrote:
ultimate777 wrote: If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

I think you should, because I have no idea what you mean, and don't agree to boot.

You have no idea what I mean and you don't agree with it to boot? I can hear Christopher Hitchens laughing in his grave

I will give you one example very early on: In the garden of Eden, contrary to the Lord's prayer, much later on, of course, God leads us into temptation. He puts the Tree of Good and Evil in the garden and you know the rest. I have probably heard all the exuses: No Sale! And He did it deliberately.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:05 pm

For God not to lead us into temptation in the manner you suggest it would mean that God would have to provide no choice in any regard, in which case the moral issue would be that we're automatons with no choice but to "love" (whatever that means in the absence of choice) and serve God. The provision of choice in and of itself is not by definition, "temptation."

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:07 am

ultimate777 wrote:Does it ever seem to you if the Bible is inerent there are millions of people walking the Earth that are more moral than God? If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

Another thing: Can God make something good or evil by just deciding it will be so?

The phrase "more moral than God" implies that there is an objective moral standard outside of God. Once that standard is justified, then maybe this will make some sense.

ultimate777 · Post by **ultimate777** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:39 am

Report this postReply with quoteRe: If the Bible is inerent, and more
by Canuckster1127 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:05 pm

For God not to lead us into temptation in the manner you suggest it would mean that God would have to provide no choice in any regard, in which case the moral issue would be that we're automatons with no choice but to "love" (whatever that means in the absence of choice) and serve God.

I am really unclear by what you mean by automatons. How much initiative does an automatons have their day to day life?

If people are unable to want to sin, but can decide what to do and to want otherwise, are they automatons? If so, it might be worth it to avoid the possibility of Hell.

The provision of choice in and of itself is not by definition, "temptation."

In this case it is.

ultimate777 · Post by **ultimate777** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:49 am

Report this postReply with quoteRe: If the Bible is inerent, and more
by puritan lad on Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:07 am

ultimate777 wrote:
Does it ever seem to you if the Bible is inerent there are millions of people walking the Earth that are more moral than God? If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

Another thing: Can God make something good or evil by just deciding it will be so?
The phrase "more moral than God" implies that there is an objective moral standard outside of God. Once that standard is justified, then maybe this will make some sense."To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com
http://christianskepticism.blogspot.com

If God can decide what is moral, and have any exceptions he wants, then no one can be more moral than God. That makes it simple. However, I once heard a preacher on the radio say God cannot be capricious in such things. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong no matter what God wants, IIRC.

Echoside · Post by **Echoside** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:31 pm

ultimate777 wrote: What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong no matter what God wants, IIRC.

Right and wrong cannot exist without God. They are part of his nature. God does not simply decree randomly based on what mood he's in, as God is unchanging. What is right is what God's nature is, there's no more to it than that.

ultimate777 · Post by **ultimate777** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:17 am

puritan lad on Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:07 am

ultimate777 wrote:
Does it ever seem to you if the Bible is inerent there are millions of people walking the Earth that are more moral than God? If enough interest is shown and I can get up the energy I may try to explain what I mean. But my thoughts are no means origional, so some of you may guess what I am talking about.

Another thing: Can God make something good or evil by just deciding it will be so?
The phrase "more moral than God" implies that there is an objective moral standard outside of God. Once that standard is justified, then maybe this will make some sense.

I don't know, I am asking. Also is there anything approaching unamity on this among Christians?

domokunrox · Post by **domokunrox** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:02 am

Just chiming in here on the last question of the OP.

The question is just another version of the euthyphro dilemma.

Is the moral good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it good because it is commanded by God?

Its a false dilemma.

God is THE good. You cannot have good without God.
Christian philosophers have had the answer to this for years.

mum1983 · Post by **mum1983** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:06 am

This just goes round in circles. Let me just say that as a practicing Christian, there are times I feel at odd with what God says is "good." Sometimes one thinks "I would have done it this way..." (for instance, free will could have still existed without putting the tree in their way. I tell my daughter to eat her vegetables, so am I going to deliberately put a slice of chocolate cake on the table beside her to tempt her?) but ultimetely I'm not God and this is the way it is and nothing I say or do can ever change it. I have to admit, this does make for some feelings of being unfulfilled as a Christian.

Christians call "gut instincts" God speaking to them while athiests would call it a survival skill. Either way, I would say the vast majority of us have had this feeling at one time or another; when we just know something is wrong. I sometimes get this feeling while reading the Bible, how do I get my head around that?

domokunrox · Post by **domokunrox** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:45 am

Plantiga writes

A world containing creatures who are significantly free and freely perform more good than evil actions is more valuable. All else being equal than a world containing no free creatures at all.

Now, God can create free creatures, but he can't cause or determine them to only do what is right. For if he does so, they wouldn't be significantly free. They do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, he must make them capable of moral evil.

CS Lewis also agreed saying
to its logical conclusion, evils thoughts would be impossible because the cerebral matter of the brain would refuse its task in attempting to commit them.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:34 pm

ultimate777 wrote:If God can decide what is moral, and have any exceptions he wants, then no one can be more moral than God. That makes it simple. However, I once heard a preacher on the radio say God cannot be capricious in such things. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong no matter what God wants, IIRC.

Radio, and especially TV preachers are a bad source of information. God decides what is moral and immoral, and is not bound by any standard outside of Himself.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:35 pm

domokunrox wrote:Plantiga writes

A world containing creatures who are significantly free and freely perform more good than evil actions is more valuable. All else being equal than a world containing no free creatures at all.

Now, God can create free creatures, but he can't cause or determine them to only do what is right. For if he does so, they wouldn't be significantly free. They do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, he must make them capable of moral evil.

CS Lewis also agreed saying
to its logical conclusion, evils thoughts would be impossible because the cerebral matter of the brain would refuse its task in attempting to commit them.

Hmm. I guess there will be no free creatures in Heaven.