Experiences with nonbelievers

[Reactionary]

You have to come at the angle that there has to be intelligence or authorship in EVERYTHING.

In other words, from disorder comes only more disorder. Now, I don't know if it would be safe to appeal to the Second Law of Thermodynamics - I've read somewhere that this argument for design is outdated... I don't know the details though...

[BOBtheMASTER]

I honestly don't blame some atheists for having an attitude towards Christianity and religion in general. When you go through life and don't see a single reason to believe that supernatural beings/events exist (let alone that the Christian God exists), it's really easy to become bitter and confrontational. You just have to see things from their eyes. Of course you can't truly do that without a major worldview shift. It's not a pleasant experience.

So if you're speaking with an atheist that seems to have an attitude. Don't look at it as "they're wrong and it's just a matter of getting through to them". Because there is a good chance that they're thinking the same thing about you. As confident as you think you are in your beliefs, they are probably just as confident in theirs.

So overall, just don't look down on them. We could all benefit from a little more understanding.

[Reactionary]

I honestly don't blame some atheists for having an attitude towards Christianity and religion in general. When you go through life and don't see a single reason to believe that supernatural beings/events exist (let alone that the Christian God exists), it's really easy to become bitter and confrontational. You just have to see things from their eyes. Of course you can't truly do that without a major worldview shift. It's not a pleasant experience.

So if you're speaking with an atheist that seems to have an attitude. Don't look at it as "they're wrong and it's just a matter of getting through to them". Because there is a good chance that they're thinking the same thing about you. As confident as you think you are in your beliefs, they are probably just as confident in theirs.

So overall, just don't look down on them. We could all benefit from a little more understanding.

I don't believe that 'not seeing a single reason' to believe in the supernatural is a satisfactory excuse. This is the age when everyone can inform themselves about such topics, there are plenty of sites that cover most issues a nonbeliever might have with Christianity, as well as providing evidence for God (like this one, for instance). The thing is, many don't want to do that because they live in denial - my experience is that such are not as confident in their beliefs as you may think. Not everyone would see the existence of God as good news - especially those who live sinful lifestyles, which they wouldn't want to give up.

Another thing, why do you think I haven't tried to see things from their eyes? I have, I thought like an atheist, and honestly, I saw many inconsistencies. So many atheists talk about being 'moral', why, for whom, what's the purpose of being moral in an atheist world (providing that they can define morality, and they can't)? They talk about 'tolerance', while I don't see a reason why anyone should be tolerant in an atheist world. I think they keep borrowing terms and ideas from Christianity, then try to use them to discredit Christianity itself.

I've also noticed that many atheists are downright obsessed with death. I've seen them putting up quotes about how we should live our lives to the fullest while they last, how life is short, we're all going to die, etc... Does that tell you something? I'm certain that those people aren't happy. You can't possibly be happy if you hold to such a pessimistic worldview. But if life is short, and we're all going to die, why does it matter what we believe? If someone prefers to live through their life believing in a non-existent god - if it makes them feel better, why should anyone waste their precious life on converting them? It's not like it would make any difference in the end.

[BOBtheMASTER]

I don't believe that 'not seeing a single reason' to believe in the supernatural is a satisfactory excuse. This is the age when everyone can inform themselves about such topics, there are plenty of sites that cover most issues a nonbeliever might have with Christianity, as well as providing evidence for God (like this one, for instance). The thing is, many don't want to do that because they live in denial - my experience is that such are not as confident in their beliefs as you may think. Not everyone would see the existence of God as good news - especially those who live sinful lifestyles, which they wouldn't want to give up.

Another thing, why do you think I haven't tried to see things from their eyes? I have, I thought like an atheist, and honestly, I saw many inconsistencies. So many atheists talk about being 'moral', why, for whom, what's the purpose of being moral in an atheist world (providing that they can define morality, and they can't)? They talk about 'tolerance', while I don't see a reason why anyone should be tolerant in an atheist world. I think they keep borrowing terms and ideas from Christianity, then try to use them to discredit Christianity itself.

I've also noticed that many atheists are downright obsessed with death. I've seen them putting up quotes about how we should live our lives to the fullest while they last, how life is short, we're all going to die, etc... Does that tell you something? I'm certain that those people aren't happy. You can't possibly be happy if you hold to such a pessimistic worldview. But if life is short, and we're all going to die, why does it matter what we believe? If someone prefers to live through their life believing in a non-existent god - if it makes them feel better, why should anyone waste their precious life on converting them? It's not like it would make any difference in the end.

You sound like me from a few years ago. Sorry if I sound condescending. I tried to explain it the best that I could. I had a feeling that I would get responses like that. And I honestly don't blame you. It's probably how I would have responded a few years ago.

I have read nearly every article on this site. Much of it helped me, but none of it cured the problem. You've got it completely backwards right now. I was fine before I had access to more info. As soon as I started looking for actual evidence of God's existence is when my doubt started. I would elaborate more, but I don't want to hijack the topic.

The fact that you say "I'm certian that those people aren't happy" proves to me that you don't understand their worldview. You have not thought like an atheist. You may have tried, but it sounds like you failed. I used to wonder how someone could possibly go through life with an atheist worldview. It just made no sense to me. How could someone live knowing (or at least thinking) that they would cease to exist once they die? Everything would be utterly pointless. All in all we would be mindless biological machines. It took 4 years of very very slow understanding before I understood how someone could possibly be happy with such a worldview. (Yes I realize that everyone is different, but just generally speaking right now). This was only possible because, as of right now, I'm only a couple more viewpoint shifts away from becoming an atheist. I doubt that I will ever actually call myself one, but I could pass for one with very little effort.

If you have never gone through very long periods of severe doubt, then I don't really expect you to understand. Yes, I know... I probably sound angsty right now.

[Philip]

What I notice about a lot of hostile/aggressive unbelievers is that they either had a bad church experience growing up, or grew up in a church that was spiritually dead and often insincere and filled with hypocrisy. They may have seen a lot of negativity or experienced hurt from people CALLING themselves Christians, but who either weren't truly saved or simply weren't walking the walk.

Particularly online, where people are often very direct, I see Christians described in ways that are far removed from those of the loving, dynamic Christian men and women I grew up around (in a wonderful Christ-filled church). I think many of those hostiles have never experienced fun, confident, happy, loving and non-judgmental Christians, up close and personal. They may have encountered Christians that embrace scientific views they consider frightfully ignorant (particularly those with Young Earth views). While I well realize that the caricatures so often assigned to Christians do in fact have real-world counterparts, it pains me greatly to realize that those spreading them have probably not experienced a true Christian friend or acquaintance in a meaningful way. And I think this fact offers us Christians tremendous opportunities to go far beyond any expectations an unbeliever might have of us. But, as others have said, if we only view an unbeliever as a "project," or worse, as an "us against them" dynamic, then we'll likely never have the impact of which we aspire to. And we'll only confirm part of the image of Christians they already often have.

[Reactionary]

You sound like me from a few years ago. Sorry if I sound condescending. I tried to explain it the best that I could. I had a feeling that I would get responses like that. And I honestly don't blame you. It's probably how I would have responded a few years ago.

Well, what has changed?

I have read nearly every article on this site. Much of it helped me, but none of it cured the problem. You've got it completely backwards right now. I was fine before I had access to more info. As soon as I started looking for actual evidence of God's existence is when my doubt started. I would elaborate more, but I don't want to hijack the topic.

I'd definitely like you to elaborate more. I feel very much surprised to read that, and I'd like to help (just as I'm sure the other members would) find the cause to your doubts.

What I notice about a lot of hostile/aggressive unbelievers is that they either had a bad church experience growing up, or grew up in a church that was spiritually dead and often insincere and filled with hipocracy. They may have seen a lot of negativity or experienced hurt from people CALLING themselves Christians, but who either weren't truly saved or simply weren't walking the walk.

I agree, I've noticed the same thing. Unfortunately, there are individuals who give Christianity a bad name. Does that give anyone the right to judge the book by a few pages randomly browsed through? No, I don't think it does. I was personally never concerned by hypocrisy and negativity among all those who call themselves 'Christians', I've been focused on evaluating the truth claims of that worldview, which is the most important matter. It shouldn't be surprising that Christianity actually predicts sinful behaviour among all the people.

[domokunrox]

You have to come at the angle that there has to be intelligence or authorship in EVERYTHING.

In other words, from disorder comes only more disorder. Now, I don't know if it would be safe to appeal to the Second Law of Thermodynamics - I've read somewhere that this argument for design is outdated... I don't know the details though...

I would stay away from thermodynamic law as evidence. It will do more damage than good.

Stick to philosophical proofs. You're going to want to administer a heavy dose of metaphysics to the naturalist. You have to remember that God's existence cannot be confirmed by science. Science should only be observational evidence to confirm intelligence and authorship along with the intelligence of the method. To be more specific, stick to analytic, rational, and descriptive metaphysics.

Avoid revisionist theories, and empirism.