Catholics and salvation

[Bill McEnaney]

People don't tell me what St. James means by "dead" when they remind me that faith without works is dead. If my faith is dead, maybe it can't help me go to heaven. We Catholics know that we don't earn heaven. But we believe that Our Lord requires us to do good works with His help. Since Christ does require us to do them, St. James asks, "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" (James 2:24 Douay-Rheims Version). I'd say that a work of the law is any work we do to try to obligate God to reward us for it, to get Him to sign a legally binding contract, if you will. I hope and pray that I'll go to heaven. But I don't know that I'll go there. As Holy Scripture teaches me, we don't hope for what we already have, so I'll find the verse that says that. Ah, here it is, Romans 8:24: "For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?" Here's how the NKJV puts the same verse (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV).

[domokunrox]

You know, I ask such a simple question. Some of you just don't like his answer. Its biblical, and some or you want to argue semantics because its contrary to your view? Did anyone here ever stop and think, well, maybe I should examine my position and try to see if I am not really projecting an ingenesis view on regeneration, salvation, works, and faith?

Rick, I ask you. Does your salvation depend on the fact that you are regenerated?

Bart

So ideally by baptism but in some cases there is an express lane?

You misunderstood him.

Let's exercise our brain here.

We put our faith in the teaching of Jesus, correct? The bible will teach us how to obtain eternal life.

Do you believe it?
It is true?
Why is it true?

You can go ahead and give short answers if you please. The fact of the matter is, reading the bible and trying to make sense of it to gain knowledge of God has to be pretty important. Otherwise, we'd be ignorant and lost as to what God expects, correct? Thankfully, this isn't the case.

But what happens then? Does the knowledge just sit there? It surely doesn't, right?

So I want to you tell me.

Let's pretend you were the best math teacher around and I wanted to learn from you. I go to your class for months and then you give me the final exam. All the lectures and all the homework, and it comes down to this. Let's see if I know it. So the final exam is over, and all the papers are turned in. You go home and start grading them so you can give me that passing grade. However, you get thru it all and you didn't find my test. You call me up and ask me if I turned in my test. I tell you of course I did. But you still can't find it. However you remember that you found a blank test, ans so you ask me if I left it blank. So, you ask me why and I didn't even bother to write my name down. And I say to you.

I didn't do the work. I don't need to. I know it. I believe what you taught is true.

So, you ask me, what's 2+2 then?

I tell you 5

So, with that answer.
Would you say I know math?
would you say I believe what you taught me?

[neo-x]

Guys, I'm all interested in reading about what you have to say but PLEASE let it NOT be another debate of faith vs works, one side accusing the other...we have had plenty of these in the past.

Hope you see the point.

[Byblos]

.

Just the works to reach a state of being worthy to be water baptized is a long process is it not? The sinner Just can't hear the gospel and be saved in the Catholic religion. I guess Luther is being de-fanged by this new improved version of grace alone theory.

I honestly don't know what that means. There's nothing new or improved about Catholic theology, it has always been what it is.

Certainly you know about the formal steps to become catholic for the unbaptized! There's quite a program in place for those (cathechumens) wanting to become catholic that could take up to almost a year.
The goal is to become worthy through that initiation process for baptism if one is judged ready by the church, certainly sounds like a works program to me.

Grace, Glen.

There is no winning is there? Most Catholics are accused of being ignorant of the Bible because it is not taught in church but when they go the extra mile to teach converts about the Bible and their faith they are accused of practicing a works-based salvation. Sure, whatever ...

Here's an FYI though that I bet most Catholics don't even know. Did you know that one of the principal reasons for practicing infant baptism is precisely because we believe in our utter inability to save ourselves? How's that for a works program.

[Byblos]

You know, I ask such a simple question. Some of you just don't like his answer. Its biblical, and some or you want to argue semantics because its contrary to your view? Did anyone here ever stop and think, well, maybe I should examine my position and try to see if I am not really projecting an ingenesis view on regeneration, salvation, works, and faith?

Rick, I ask you. Does your salvation depend on the fact that you are regenerated?

Bart

So ideally by baptism but in some cases there is an express lane?

You misunderstood him.

Let's exercise our brain here.

We put our faith in the teaching of Jesus, correct? The bible will teach us how to obtain eternal life.

Do you believe it?
It is true?
Why is it true?

You can go ahead and give short answers if you please. The fact of the matter is, reading the bible and trying to make sense of it to gain knowledge of God has to be pretty important. Otherwise, we'd be ignorant and lost as to what God expects, correct? Thankfully, this isn't the case.

But what happens then? Does the knowledge just sit there? It surely doesn't, right?

So I want to you tell me.

Let's pretend you were the best math teacher around and I wanted to learn from you. I go to your class for months and then you give me the final exam. All the lectures and all the homework, and it comes down to this. Let's see if I know it. So the final exam is over, and all the papers are turned in. You go home and start grading them so you can give me that passing grade. However, you get thru it all and you didn't find my test. You call me up and ask me if I turned in my test. I tell you of course I did. But you still can't find it. However you remember that you found a blank test, ans so you ask me if I left it blank. So, you ask me why and I didn't even bother to write my name down. And I say to you.

I didn't do the work. I don't need to. I know it. I believe what you taught is true.

So, you ask me, what's 2+2 then?

I tell you 5

So, with that answer.
Would you say I know math?
would you say I believe what you taught me?

Dom, please quit the silly analogies and the sense of superiority, it really is unbecoming. Argue the point if you wish (although I don't see the point since we've gone down this road before) but stick to the facts. From my point of view I will repeat yet again, I am not here to convince anyone nor to debate anyone. My only concern is to dispel misconceptions where I can, pure and simple.

[RickD]

Rick, I ask you. Does your salvation depend on the fact that you are regenerated?

Dom, I want you to know I'm not ignoring your question, but I'm not going to get in another debate like the last one. It's fruitless.

[Kurieuo]

Most are being civil which is great, however please try keep it that way. If gets too heated with personal attacks will close thread. Also, sometimes if someone irks you it is just better not to dignify our give them some satisfaction through responding. Just ignore them to focus on those who are interested and willing to dialogue.

[Canuckster1127]

Dom,

Humor doesn't require doctrinal review. Lighten up my friend.

bart

[Glen]

.

Just the works to reach a state of being worthy to be water baptized is a long process is it not? The sinner Just can't hear the gospel and be saved in the Catholic religion. I guess Luther is being de-fanged by this new improved version of grace alone theory.

I honestly don't know what that means. There's nothing new or improved about Catholic theology, it has always been what it is.

Certainly you know about the formal steps to become catholic for the unbaptized! There's quite a program in place for those (cathechumens) wanting to become catholic that could take up to almost a year.
The goal is to become worthy through that initiation process for baptism if one is judged ready by the church, certainly sounds like a works program to me.

Grace, Glen.

There is no winning is there? Most Catholics are accused of being ignorant of the Bible because it is not taught in church but when they go the extra mile to teach converts about the Bible and their faith they are accused of practicing a works-based salvation. Sure, whatever ...

Here's an FYI though that I bet most Catholics don't even know. Did you know that one of the principal reasons for practicing infant baptism is precisely because we believe in our utter inability to save ourselves? How's that for a works program.

So your saying the initation process is a misconception on my part?

[Byblos]

So your saying the initation process is a misconception on my part?

No sir, what I am saying is that your misconception lies in the fact that you think this is a work.

[Glen]

So your saying the initation process is a misconception on my part?

No sir, what I am saying is that your misconception lies in the fact that you think this is a work.

So what happens if they don't meet the standerds? The process has the same ring to it as Peters remarks in Acts 10:35 KJV, this standerd was set in Gen 12:3, which Cornelius was found worthy of being blessed because of his works Acts 10:2, and 22. I can see were following the twelves circumcision ministry to the Royal Nation 1Peter 2:9, and begotten "again" 1Peter 1:3 would lead one into a overcoming, enduring, ritualistic gospel James 2:18 and 21, 4:8-9, Acts 21:20, Matthew 24:13, but seeing that earthly work was cut short Romans 9:27-28, Acts 1:6-7, with a future promise to save all Romans 11:25-32, God must be doing something else instead in the mean time. Isn't your theology based on the promises given to the sons of Jacob, and their promise to be a preisthood to the nations Exodus 19:6, Isaiah 42:6, Luke 2:32?

Something else (Ephesians 3:9) was becoming the standerd Romans 3:21, for the Heavenly work Ephesians 1:3-4, called the One New Man Ephesians 2:4-8, that work was said to be all complete in Christ Colossians 2:10, with the only requirment to maintian that grace was to reckon yourself as dead Romans 6:6, without works of the flesh Romans 4:1-4, and freely justified Romans 3:23-24, a gift Romans 5:16, of grace through Faith not of ourselves Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8.

[Byblos]

So your saying the initation process is a misconception on my part?

No sir, what I am saying is that your misconception lies in the fact that you think this is a work.

So what happens if they don't meet the standerds? The process has the same ring to it as Peters remarks in Acts 10:35 KJV, this standerd was set in Gen 12:3, which Cornelius was found worthy of being blessed because of his works Acts 10:2, and 22. I can see were following the twelves circumcision ministry to the Royal Nation 1Peter 2:9, and begotten "again" 1Peter 1:3 would lead one into a overcoming, enduring, ritualistic gospel James 2:18 and 21, 4:8-9, Acts 21:20, Matthew 24:13, but seeing that earthly work was cut short Romans 9:27-28, Acts 1:6-7, with a future promise to save all Romans 11:25-32, God must be doing something else instead in the mean time. Isn't your theology based on the promises given to the sons of Jacob, and their promise to be a preisthood to the nations Exodus 19:6, Isaiah 42:6, Luke 2:32?

Something else (Ephesians 3:9) was becoming the standerd Romans 3:21, for the Heavenly work Ephesians 1:3-4, called the One New Man Ephesians 2:4-8, that work was said to be all complete in Christ Colossians 2:10, with the only requirment to maintian that grace was to reckon yourself as dead Romans 6:6, without works of the flesh Romans 4:1-4, and freely justified Romans 3:23-24, a gift Romans 5:16, of grace through Faith not of ourselves Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8.

I don't disagree with any of that and yet I still don't see what that has to do with what Catechumens go through as being classified as a works program. They are simply studying their new-found faith, no different than anyone else studying the Bible because they are considering Christianity as a faith. But somehow that takes on a whole new meaning when it pertains to Catholicism. For the life of me I do not know why.

[domokunrox]

Rick, I can respect that. All I wanted to find out is what you find wrong with this regeneration issue personally. I am honestly not interested in a debate. Feel free to answer or not.

Bart, my take on it was humorous as well. I saw the humorous exchange and wanted to jump in with it. I'm typing on a mobile phone, friend. I can't click on those cool smiles to the right like you guys get to do. Its a light hearted, fun exercise on belief and knowledge. I was actually going to mention how some atheists think atheism means "lack of belief" but I forgot.

Peeps, need to stop getting offended over the internet. I know typing stuff on the computer looks really impersonal, but I shouldn't feel like I am having a forum discussion in 4chan. Seriously, lets take a chill pill here.

[Byblos]

Peeps, need to stop getting offended over the internet. I know typing stuff on the computer looks really impersonal, but I shouldn't feel like I am having a forum discussion in 4chan. Seriously, lets take a chill pill here.

Dom, we're not going to derail this thread but this begs a response. You have this nasty habit of stating what's on your mind, no matter how offensive or out of line it is, and then when you're called on it you dismiss it as a joke and advise everyone to take a chill pill. Might I suggest that you heed your own advice, swallow a few pills and PM me in the morning.