Thoughts on Heaven and Hell

[Glen]

Any that don't bow to Romans 11:33-35, or teach against "His Will, and Desire for all men" 1Tim 2:3-6, or His Sovereignty as potter over all the clay Romans 9:20-21, but also inlight of a future restoration of the vessels of dishonor Romans 11:25-32, which points back to His will and Desire 1Tim 2:3-6, 4:10.

Isn't this a theology? I would certainly agree that man has used his theology to shape the scriptures, instead of having his theology shaped by them.

Glen, I am personally leaning toward a hermaneutic of humility. When you come into the forum and start questioning one's discernment and sounding off on others as self-righteous, I question whether the discussion will be fruitful.

Its certainly scripture, what part is offensive to you?

[Glen]

I find it interesting you spelled Gods in plural. I expect this was a typo as we are all prone to make from time to time and meant to spell God's instead of Gods.

Yep I meant God's.

With UR - there is no theological basis for one to even receive God's gift of Grace and faith thru Jesus Christ so one can rest in that security when, according to standard Universalist dogma, everyone receives eternal salvation, including even Lucifer. The cross of Christ would become insignificant and pointless – why – everyone is predestined to find salvation after they die.

The position has its preterist, and other strains of doctrines that I wouldn't prescribe to. The preaching of the cross and its power is what saves the dead and living. Even those who died in the wilderness were pardon but failed under that covenants requirments to enter the promised land, even Moses was refused entrance.
When God's timing is ripe for them to be reconciled they all will be by His Will, Ezekiel 36:32-33, Jeremiah 31:31, Romans 11:26, Hebrews 8:8 etc...He finds them by the way, not the other way around thats your old man talking BW, better think about Romans 6:6.

If such salvation exist before the foundation of the world – the cross of Christ and his mentioning that only those that believe in John 3:16 will be saved, in essence is rather pointless because all were already saved anyways. Therefore, even the Holy Spirit’s indwelling would have no meaning or purpose either.

God choose before the creation who would be placed where in the kingdom, He knows us before we are born Jeremiah 1:5, All were dead in sin before God reconciled the world 2Cor 5:18-20, 1Cor 15:17-19, so no one was saved until the death, burial, and resurrection.

UR’s and all Universalist camps interpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-6 is skewed and in error. In Matthew 25:46, for example, eternal life with Christ last the same duration as eternal punishment does – forever and ever. God may desire all to be saved but that does not mean all will accept his salvific work. Therefore, Jesus can say in John 3:16. 36 – whosoever believes is saved. This limits believing only to this life, not the hereafter for Matthew 25:46 is true and for John 20:31 as well. Add to this the statements made in John 5:24, John 5:39 40, and Acts 10:43.

I would say your understanding is skewed, and in error concerning the translation forever. Matthew 24:13 was spoken to the circumcision concerning their enduring, overcoming to enter the kingdom at the end of the time of the Gentiles Luke 21:24, The seven Asian synagogues where blind to Pauls gospel 2Tim 1:15, Romans 11:28, Acts 21:27, so I doubt you even see that, and proably think your also part of the circumcision 1Peter 2:9, that remnant saved by grace but rejected by the nation which caused that hope to be cut off Romans 9:27-28.

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Bible interprets Bible through a balanced method and clarifies honest biblically based doctrine.

I agree the Bible when used to interpret Gods intent, shows that man is blind, naked, and helpless, in bondage to pride and ego Ephesians 2:2-3, John 2:24-25, before God opens their eyes, and ears, they are without hope of ever understanding by their own natural intellect John 12:40, Deut 29:4, 31:16, none of this was a surprise to God. God stoops down and interacts with man on his level, and tells him to do things He already knows they can't! it is all part of His reconciliation plan that was to show mans complete failure in the process, and for the most part still hid from man, and his philosophical based theologies.

Your take on Luke 18:26-27 is without regard to context which refers to those that believe in Christ Sacrifice – the possible way God made for one to become born again is through Believing in Christ work on the cross and the indwelling Holy Spirit’s inner work of transformation. Look at the context of the verses that follow in Luke 18:28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, which state just that. The way made possible, which the context speaks of, is verified by other statements Jesus himself and the Apostles mentioned elsewhere.

The way taught under the law was impossible for any man, the reason He came was to fulfill the laws, also die for all the transgressions of adams sons, Romans 3:23 is true for you, me, and all humanity we are all in the same boat, or lump. Now if we follow your theology or Calvins only certain ones Qualify for that reconciliation by God's choice, or your own ability to believe something God made foolish to man, either way pride and ego will pop to the surface and leaven the gospel of grace. No one is born again in the sense your taking it to mean, we have the downpayment, pledge, seal of the Spirit 2Cor 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14

Why this is impossible with men – is that all our works are but filthy rags. We cannot save ourselves because of our sinful rebellious state that twist and warps the things of God in such manner seeking to get away with it. UR and all forms of Universalism teaches – one can get away with it. UR and all Universalism dogmas and creeds cannot answer, why Christ came, nor can answer Jesus’ own words concerning eternal Hell for the rebellious.

This is old propaganda, and the same thing was said of Paul because he taught grace, those who rely on performance (you say you don't but I think you do) always use this tatic to try and smear the gospel of grace and Gods free gift of salvation. Jesus never used the word hell, muchless eternal punishment, the fruit of bad translations again.

So Glen, do you know the Gospel of Christ? Have you ever really heard the message? Do you even understand it? There are plenty of fine members of this Forum who can help you with this, if you do not. If you really have an idea of the gospel message, then please explain John 3:13-24, John 5:24, John 5:39 40, John 20:31, Acts 10:43, and Matthew 25:46 for us… From here, many good Christian's reading this can chime in. From what I read of your posts, you seem not to really understand the gospel message.

Your puzzle is answered in Romans 9-11, which is a telling phrase for mans theological puzzles built so high God can't even leap over them.
So BW, do you know the Gospel of the grace of God, and who its first convert was, and its pattern there after? Our do you just claim its all about you, without any discerment concerning the gospel of the circumcision, or the covenant people that gospel was directed at, Isaiah 42:6, Luke 2:32 ? Are you the royal nation, a partaking Gentile blessed by their spiritual things Romans 15:27, and waiting to rejoice with them Romans 15:10, or the One New Man a new creation hidden in the mind of God, with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies Ephesians 1:3-4, 2:4-8, 3:9, do you even know the difference in the hopes? which is it overcomer enduring to enter the earthly kingdom, or complete in Christ seated in glory?

[B. W.]

So I see you are saying all people were damned to hell, yet, UR does not teach this.

Strange doctrine you have Glen.

Again you are taking bible verses out of context.

For UR to be true - there would be no need for Christ to come at all, period - all are universaly saved in the end any way (Eph 1:4)

In light of UR dogma how then can what is stated in Rev 22:12 be true? How can God render to each one's own work?

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." NKJV

Look at this verse as well...

Rev 22:19, "...and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book...." NKJV

UR is false as is all Universalist dogma and bible twisting...
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[B. W.]

...This is old propaganda, and the same thing was said of Paul because he taught grace, those who rely on performance (you say you don't but I think you do) always use this tatic to try and smear the gospel of grace and Gods free gift of salvation. Jesus never used the word hell, muchless eternal punishment, the fruit of bad translations again.

I dunno Glen,,, Jesus was very plain about Hell as a real place... and warned to avoid it at all cost.... Look like he used the words Hell and eternal punishment alot...

Mat 11:23 Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day."

Luke 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."

Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Mat 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:42-48, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."

Add to the above... despite the metaphors used...

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

All Verses cited are from the NASB