Baptism and Salvation

[koopa184]

So, I haven't really gotten any input from other people on this, nor am I very knowledgeable about it, so I figured that this would be the best place to ask my question.

My question is this: What is the role of water baptism for the Christian? Is it something necessary for salvation, or is it just baptism in the Holy Spirit? If water baptism is indeed necessary for salvation, how do we explain Christ's promise of salvation to the unbaptized criminal on the cross next to him?

From one of your newest users,
Koopa184

[Danieltwotwenty]

I don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, if it was then Christ's work on the cross was for nothing.
Jesus said John 11:26 which indicates that is all that is required is belief in Jesus.
Baptism is just the outward expression of what has already happened with the holy spirit on the inside.

Dan

[domokunrox]

Hello, my position is that water baptism is necessary based on knowledge of it and subsequent response to take action or not to take action to command. This directly correlates with John 3:5 and Titus 3:5 . The water is for the washing of regeneration and the holy spirit is for renewing and in that order. The water baptism is the very first act of obidence to God, and it is not a works alone based method. This correlates with James 2 that faith without work is dead faith. If you do not have a functional faith, logically you don't really believe. Therefore, it would invalidate John 3:16 for you if you just "believe" and simply go into "apostasy" like state.

(NASB)1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

The water baptism is the sign of the new covenant. As with any covenant, there had to be death, burial, and ressurection.

Noah's Ark in 1 Peter 3:21 (The ark was delivered THRU the water)
God deliverance of the isrealites from slavery Hebrews 11:26 (The death of the firstborn, going THRU the water of the red sea, and they did it UNDER the cloud and FOLLOWED the cloud to the promised land)
We are called to be a royal priesthood 1 Peter 2:9 (This correlates with the Brazen alter, the WATER IN Brazen Laver, and priestly garments as explained in Exodus)

(NASB)Romans 6:4-5
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

This is certainly not a popular view here, but it is what it is. Having read John 3:5 for myself, I concluded that I MUST obey that particular command and that's why I did it. I did it privately with my brother in law and a few friends and there was a large difference in my actions and thought because I was guided by the holy spirit on another level. That's pretty much my personal take on it.

As far as the thief on the cross and why he got forgiveness. Jesus' work was not completed when the thief asked for forgiveness, therefore he isn't under the new covenant. Post ressurection, post day of Pentecost salvation is based on our response to the Gospel, and it commits the genetic fallacy to argue that we can exclude ourselves from command because of it. When you were born does not invalidate a command from God in how to obtain salvation in the new covenant era.

If you guys want to know something extra, my stance on this is also because it helps us identify genuine Christianity from the Unitarian universalists and Monist based faith assimilations of Christianity. I have personally lost a sister in law to apostasy because she experienced a "fiery" baptism from New age (occult) experiments. This fake "fiery" invisible baptism is invalid black magic from Kundalini spirit. I don't want to say more because it angers me and saddens me.

[RickD]

Koopa, This is an article from the home site. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/baptism.html.

Keep in mind that domokunrox belief is that one doesn't receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, until after water baptism. This belief is certainly outside orthodox Christianity. According to domokunrox, I am not saved, because I haven't been baptized by water.
The article I linked to, talks about what it means to be born of water. And it's not water baptism. The bible does not say anywhere, that those who aren't baptized in water, aren't saved. Water baptism is a outward symbol of the inward baptism of the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit baptism, is the baptism that saves. When one believes on Christ, one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is evidence of salvation. Since I haven't been baptized in water, and I do have the indwelling Holy Spirit, then obviously something is wrong with the belief that one doesn't receive the indwelling HS, upon water baptism.

[domokunrox]

Rick, not going to argue with you. Your second statement is quite false.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Baptism

Again, this is a highly debated. There just is no historical or biblical precedent anywhere that says water baptism is simply an "outward sign" of belief in Christ. Believe what you want. I don't.

[koopa184]

As far as domokunrox's belief being inside orthodox Christianity, I have to agree with domokunrox himself. I think it's inside, because this really is a highly-debated topic.

[RickD]

As far as domokunrox's belief being inside orthodox Christianity, I have to agree with domokunrox himself. I think it's inside, because this really is a highly-debated topic.

Koopa, the link Dom posted, is for the orthodox church. The orthodox church is a specific denomination. When I said Orthodox Christianity, I wasn't referring to the denomination, but mainstream, historical Christianity, as a whole. Within Protestant Christianity, there are very few denominations that hold to "water baptism regeneration". Don't take my word for it nor dom's word. Check for yourself, and you'll see for yourself. We've had this discussion before, and it seems Dom has an agenda to promote baptismal regeneration. Be cautious, and discerning.

[jlay]

This correlates with James 2 that faith without work is dead faith. If you do not have a functional faith, logically you don't really believe.

Dom, you are a smart guy but this is playing with the text to suit your own predispositions. Faith with out works is dead. You are conflating dead to mean not saved. Plus you are imposing water baptism onto the text where there is certainly no basis to do so. It is poor exegesis.

[domokunrox]

Rick, again, not here to argue with you. You however misjudge me and you make this particular issue a personally offensive one in your thoughts about me. I don't have an agenda. I believe Jesus Christ as my savior and ONLY way and that's why I faithfully obey his command. There are plenty of sect, denominations, and cults that claim the correct way, and its up to us to discern who is bending the rules and sacraments to their liking and steer clear or it.

I agree with you wholly, Rick. I encourage all to investigate this matter and not simply take someone's word for it. Reading the bible is essential in this matter. I simply present my findings, and I want others to read it for themselves privately and they should pray that God helps them understand the scripture. That's all I have to say on that.

Jlay,
I understand James 2 just fine. I made no exegesis stating that dead faith is unsaved. It simply is disobidience to command from God, and you need to make things right. Your willingness to act or not act on a command from God directly reflects if you do believe in Christ and evidence of your faith. Walk the walk, not talk the talk. If you really do love God, do your actions reflect keeping his commandments? Do we stumble and do we make mistakes? Absolutely! But are you honestly trying or seeing what you can get away with? And that is where you would be toying with God and that's where it could be fatal.

(NASB)Matthew 7:21-27
"Not everyone who says to Me, ''Lord, Lord,'' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [22] "Many will say to Me on that day, ''Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'' [23] "And then I will declare to them, ''I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'' [24] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. [25] "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. [26] "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. [27] "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall

And water baptism is throughly biblical, jlay. I have imposed nothing into the text. Its is so blatantly in the bible. Look down further in John 3

(NASB)John 3:22-23
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. [23] John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized-

because there was much water there

Then look at the next chapter

(NASB)John 4:1-2
Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John [2] (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)

It simply is just all over the place, jlay. Its all over the gospels and refered to many times in letters.
I used to believe just like you guys. I thought it was silly, but then I read about it. Too many examples and it makes so much sense.

Again, we're of differing opinions here on this matter. I encourage people to read it to decide for themselves as I did. In any case, God bless you guys.

[RickD]

Koopa,

Here's a link to another thread we had on baptism.http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36521

I encourage you to read through it all, to get an idea why Dom is alone here, with his idea that the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell a believer, until after water baptism. The thread gets a little muddled in the middle, but picks up again around page 6.
koopa, if you really are interested give it a read.

Domokunrox wrote:

And water baptism is throughly biblical, jlay. I have imposed nothing into the text. Its is so blatantly in the bible. Look down further in John 3

Dom, I don't see anyone saying that water baptism isn't biblical. According to your belief, a Believer isn't saved until a person performs the ritual of immersion in water. So, instead of water baptism being a symbol of the real, saving baptism, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you have made the water as what has the power in the salvation of a believer.

[Echoside]

Just to add in my 2c, I do think that works are a necessary next step to faith. God's grace is the only thing needed to be saved, but I do not believe there has ever been a person who accepted God and did not change, was not made more holy over time.

So, while I agree that the baptism isn't the cause of your salvation, I can only wonder why someone would be OPPOSED to getting it. It is an obviously biblical process, and doing so glorifies God and the rebirth.

It is the effect (baptism, works, etc.) that follow the cause (salvation). Is baptism 100% necessary to be saved? No I don't think so, but the importance shouldn't be undermined because "it doesn't save you".

[RickD]

Just to add in my 2c, I do think that works are a necessary next step to faith. God's grace is the only thing needed to be saved, but I do not believe there has ever been a person who accepted God and did not change, was not made more holy over time.

So, while I agree that the baptism isn't the cause of your salvation, I can only wonder why someone would be OPPOSED to getting it. It is an obviously biblical process, and doing so glorifies God and the rebirth.

It is the effect (baptism, works, etc.) that follow the cause (salvation). Is baptism 100% necessary to be saved? No I don't think so, but the importance shouldn't be undermined because "it doesn't save you".

Echoside, you just said basically the same that the rest of us have been saying. The proper order is, accepting Christ, then water baptism, then through the indwelling Holy Spirit, one produces fruit. The works come as a result of the Holy Spirit transforming the believer to the image of Christ.

That is a far cry from what Dom is saying, that it's the water baptism that saves. This is what he told me in another thread, when I asked him if according to his belief, since I haven't been baptized, could I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? This is dom's response:

Rick, my response to you is that the holy spirit comes after water baptism. Again, Peter said, SURELY ONE CANNOT REFUSE THE WATER. Look it up. I am sorry to tell you that you don't have the gift of the holy spirit. Obey God's command and receive the baptism and if you really do believe and accept it, you will know the difference.

[Echoside]

That is a far cry from what Dom is saying, that it's the water baptism that saves. This is what he told me in another thread, when I asked him if according to his belief, since I haven't been baptized, could I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Is there a reason you don't want to be baptized?

[RickD]

That is a far cry from what Dom is saying, that it's the water baptism that saves. This is what he told me in another thread, when I asked him if according to his belief, since I haven't been baptized, could I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Is there a reason you don't want to be baptized?

Echoside, in the other thread on baptism, this came up. Here is my response in my post:

I can only speak for myself here, but the reason why I never got baptized in water, is simply because I never felt God was urging me to. I tend to look at every day as being a day that I'm thankful for what God has given me. I don't really look at religious holidays, as being any more special than any other day, as pertaining to my faith. Although, I do love all that the Christmas season brings, except commercialism. In the same way, I never felt led to participate in rituals, including water baptism. I know what the real baptism of the Holy Spirit is, and I guess that's enough for me. That's not to say that if I felt God was leading me to be baptized in water, I wouldn't do it. I do respect a believer's choice to participate in water baptism, as long as it's done properly. I guess it's a conscience thing, similar to this passage in Romans.

Romans 14:1-9
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the [a]servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person [c]regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, [d]does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Echoside, I didn't accept Christ in a church, or another place that I was invited to be baptized in water afterwards. I'm really not a ritual type person. But, like I said above, thats fine for those who want to be baptized. I never felt God was leading me to be water baptized, tbh. Besides I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

[domokunrox]

Rick, again, you're severely misunderstanding my position and again making this an emotional and personal matter rather then one based on the bible.

Disobidence to command from God is not in correct standing with God. End of story. Its one thing to be ignorant of the fact, and another thing to blatantly disobey. You will be judged on your response to the Gospel and general revelation if you never had a chance to hear it.

I never said that you cannot feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, or something of that sort. I simply said there is no basis at all that the holy spirit is residing IN YOU with a dry, unburied, and invisible "baptism". I have never seen someone perform an invisible baptism on a new Christian, Rick. It simply makes no sense at all. I however am going by the book and carefully following the instructions and the examples. The first example was Jesus' baptism and there are so many examples of water baptism thereafter. You call it a ritual, and that doesn't matter. What does matter is that baptisms were done in the water literally.
I never said the water saves you. Your FAITH does. Baptism is just the beginning of your faith.

Again, Rick, I also do not understand and connect the dots anywhere in Romans 14 that negates John 3:5 and Titus 3:5, and the many examples of water baptism.

Rick, I have anxiety in front of large groups of people. Severe anxiety. I can empathize with people who have this problem or are just really shy. There's nothing wrong with that, and there shouldn't be any pastor, deacon, etc who should refuse to fill the baptistery for a more intimate setting as I asked for.

But again, its up to you, Rick. Its up to everyone else as well. I read the scripture and I can read that its how Jesus wanted it, and that's good enough for me.