Who gets into Heaven?

[wazatron]

and coming back to my earlier point, Jlay if you were born in afganistan you would be a mulsim and no amount of persuasion from anyone would convince you otherwise. Islam would be the only right religion. - Does this sound familiar.
Can you see my point?

[jlay]

Well, we've already addressed much of this, but I will rehash. Your point has nothing to do with what YOU know.

FWIW, there are Christians in Afghanistan. In fact, there have been converts to Christianity in Afghanistan.

There are several ways of adressing this issue.
1st-Is ignorance of Christ the same as rejection of Christ? No question, many of the OT Fathers were ignorant of Christ. At least in a sense of the revelation we have today. However, many men TRUSTED what revelation God gave to them. In fact, the OT reveals a pagan, gentile prostitute who was declared righteous through her faith. (See account of Rahab)
Christ is the God's ulitmate revelation of Himself That is the Word (Logos) of God. The OT says that Abraham believed God and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness. The truth of the revelation He received was through the Word (Logos) of God, whether he knew the name Jesus or not. Abraham was saved by faith. Not because he followed the right rules. Not because he joined the right religion. But, because he trusted God with what revelation he had. And Christ was still the source.

2nd-I think we'd both agree that all men have a conscience. When people sin, they are consciously ignoring what they know to be right.
Analogy: Let's say a boy is tossing around the baseball. The ball accidentaly slips out of his hand and breaks the windom in his Father's shiny new car.
Compare to this: The same boy is angry with his father, and out of his anger takes the same baseball and hurls it through the same glass.
Here we have the same boy, same father, same ball and same glass. One is sin, one is not. Can you guess which one?
Now, where your argument fails is that you say the person in Afghanistan is going to be denied heaven because of an accident. The Bible says people will be judged by their deeds. No good person will be sent to Hell, even if they've never heard of Jesus.

As I said earlier, none of this has anything to do with what YOU know. What are YOU going to do with what YOU know.
When you lie, do you know it is wrong? When you lust, do you know that you are mentally and spiritually taking what does not belong to you? See Matthew 5:27,28. When you hate, do you realize you are sowing the seeds of murder in your heart? (But God gets angry??)

You attmepted earlier to take a shot at the character of God by saying God gets angry. Your implication was that anger was wrong. Obviously some kinds of anger are wrong. Some are righteously justified. Such as anger at injustice. God in His loving nature will of course love justice. A being of perfect love must love justice, because justice is right and good. There is nothing more loving than righting an injustice. When the Jews were liberated from Fascist Nazi, a wrong was made right. When the slaves were liberated from Chattel slavery in America, justice was done. People were right to be angry with Fascism and bigotry. (Would you disagree?) Anger in this case was a virtue. However, with this virtue came much judgment, and it was harsh. War and death were the result. Can you say that the war in Germany to free the Jews was not just? Only a sociopath would say so. Yet, you say that God is wrong to be angry with the wicked. (Psalm 7:11) You say He is wrong to desire to bring justice. Wrong to desire to set the captives free.
Here I have established that there is good anger (righteous indignation) and there is bad anger. Since you attempted to impune God's character by saying he is angry, then I would assume you consider it wrong to be angry. Has your anger always been as described above? If you are like me, it hasn't, not by a mile. Should God, the ultimate source of love and justice allow your injustice to go unnoticed? If God overlooked even the whitest of lies, He would be a fraud. And God is not a fraud. How sad, that in attempting to impune His character you only further store up wrath for yourself.

God, in His omniscience knows who will respond to Him. Your objection says that God doesn't know and that He doesn't care. The cross is a demonstration that in love, God does care about justice. But just as important is that in mercy He personally wants to justify you. And when God from the cross, bleeding out His life to pay for your sin, looks down and extends His hand to free you from your ocean of sin, you say, "What about some unknown, unnamed person!!!"
Imagine that man in the ocean, dying and depserate in a sea of sin. The life boat comes, and he says, "What about the person who is dying in another country? I refuse to be rescued, because of some person in some country I know nothing about. In fact, I don't even think you really exist. If you really existed, then I would be able to be saved by some other way." You'd say the person was either delusional, or ridiculously stubborn. "I'm not delusion!! "Try throwing a life preserver to man who doesn't know he is drowning. He will mock and scoff.

The fact is that the God of this universe has given you revelation. You know. You are accountable for what YOU DO KNOW. You've even admitted that some if not much of what you think about God and the Bible is distorted. Why not just repent, and lay down all your distortions, and trust what has been revealed to you. Then God will renew your mind. Christ died for your sins, according to the scritpures. That He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the scriptures. Believe His message and you will have eternal life. You will have passed from death to life. (1 Cor. 15:3-4, John 5:24)

[wazatron]

Jlay, i was reluctant to return to this post and rightly so. It is apparant that no amount of arguments or scientific evidence available will EVER make you change your views (this is sad). It is your life and you are free to live it however you wish. If you want to believe in the tooth fairy, i will not stop you.

I will keep this brief and relevant to the topic of the post. i.e who gets into heaven.

It has been argued and confirmed by yourself that Christ is the only way into heaven. Yet you write the below, directly taken from the bible.

Jlay quote:
The Bible says people will be judged by their deeds. No good person will be sent to Hell, even if they've never heard of Jesus.

Reply:
So JESUS is not the only way, as stated by you. Agreed? prob not.
People who have never heard have Jesus and therefore cannot accept him, can still get into heaven.
Confirmed by Jlay/bible.

Therefore: Religion is a fraud and unnecessary, if we inherently know good and bad.

[jlay]

Waz,

Usually when one starts making ad-hominems it's time to move on. But, I've got hope for you yet.

Jlay quote:
The Bible says people will be judged by their deeds. No good person will be sent to Hell, even if they've never heard of Jesus.

Reply:
So JESUS is not the only way, as stated by you. Agreed? prob not.
People who have never heard have Jesus and therefore cannot accept him, can still get into heaven.
Confirmed by Jlay/bible.

Therefore: Religion is a fraud and unnecessary, if we inherently know good and bad.

Religion, depending on how you define it, is a fraud, and unnecessary. Jesus didn't come to make people religious. Being saved isn't a matter of praying the right number of times a day, or following some prescriptive discipline. It is a matter of trusting in the work of Christ and His message. It isn't trust Jesus, plus go to church, plus tithe, plus this or that. It is trust in the Gospel for yourself.
Trusting in the Gospel should lead one to new life and new desires. Just as winning the lottery should lead a person to a new life of wealth. However, a lottery winner is not required to live in a mansion, or even to cash in the ticket. In view of their reward, they SHOULD live in a way that reflects the truth of who they now are. That is exactly the same for the believer.

Christ is the only way. Based on my best understanding, people who have never heard of Jesus will be judged based on what they have done. It is a bit more of a complex issue than how you state it, but that's OK. I certainly don't fault anyone for that. As I gave any example, Hebrews 10 gives many examples of people decalred righteous by faith, who were not aware of the "name" Jesus. This is important. This doesn't mean that they weren't saved by a way other than Christ. That faith they demonstrated was not possible without the promise of a coming savior. This is a tough topic and one theologians have wrestled over for years. For myself, I know God saved me. Looking back on it, I am amazed, "how did someone like me come to know Jesus." And so, I trust that God will not fail to reach anyone who desires to know him.

This is where I think your objection fails. You presume that people are good. They aren't. You presume that 'good' people are being cast into outer darkness by some sadistic prison gaurd in the sky. (This is your view, not the Bibles) The problem is really your own testimony. You don't live in Afghanistan. You don't live in ignorance of the Gospel. You have all this afforded to you, yet you rebel against it and reject it with utter disdain. Yet, somehow, you try to convince us you are genuinely concerned about someone, somewhere, you've never met, hearing a message that you reject with all your heart. A fairytale as you say. The faults with this objection have already been pointed out. I gave you the example of the life preserver. Do you seriously pretend to think that rejecting the life preserver is rational?

All that said, here is the important part. You do have revelation about Jesus Christ. You have revelation about your own sin, as you have confessed to be a liar, etc. You have revelation that (according to the scriptures) your sin has put you at enmity with God. (The bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire Rev. 21:8) God in His mercy sent Christ to die for your sins. To pay the ransom to set you free. As Jesus stated, rejecting the revelation of His message means you will die in your sins. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins." (John 8:24)
Here we have an example of rejection of revelation. They heard and knew the claims of Jesus. They rejected. Jesus said, because of this rejection, they wil die in their sins. And thus, they will be judged by their deeds. Of course all that sin becomes secondary in light of their greatest deed. That of rejecting their own salvation.

Not liking the taste of the medicine doesn't make it any less the cure. Your conscience bears witness to your need for saving. Everything I've written is because I value your life, not to win an argument. I'd be happy to be the fairytale guy, if it means I can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And if you reject Christ you will die in your sin. You will face an eternal, holy and righteous God. God is good and just and loving. Because he is all of those things He must bring justice. He must reveal His wrath against all injustice, oppression and iniquity wherever it is found. You've decided that pardon doesn't taste good to you, and so have decided to face judgement and give account on your own. That my friend, grieves me. Repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

[B. W.]

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Ditto...

Waz,

Usually when one starts making ad-hominems it's time to move on. But, I've got hope for you yet.

Jlay quote:
The Bible says people will be judged by their deeds. No good person will be sent to Hell, even if they've never heard of Jesus.

Reply:
So JESUS is not the only way, as stated by you. Agreed? prob not.
People who have never heard have Jesus and therefore cannot accept him, can still get into heaven.
Confirmed by Jlay/bible.

Therefore: Religion is a fraud and unnecessary, if we inherently know good and bad.

Religion, depending on how you define it, is a fraud, and unnecessary. Jesus didn't come to make people religious. Being saved isn't a matter of praying the right number of times a day, or following some prescriptive discipline. It is a matter of trusting in the work of Christ and His message. It isn't trust Jesus, plus go to church, plus tithe, plus this or that. It is trust in the Gospel for yourself.
Trusting in the Gospel should lead one to new life and new desires. Just as winning the lottery should lead a person to a new life of wealth. However, a lottery winner is not required to live in a mansion, or even to cash in the ticket. In view of their reward, they SHOULD live in a way that reflects the truth of who they now are. That is exactly the same for the believer.

Christ is the only way. Based on my best understanding, people who have never heard of Jesus will be judged based on what they have done. It is a bit more of a complex issue than how you state it, but that's OK. I certainly don't fault anyone for that. As I gave any example, Hebrews 10 gives many examples of people decalred righteous by faith, who were not aware of the "name" Jesus. This is important. This doesn't mean that they weren't saved by a way other than Christ. That faith they demonstrated was not possible without the promise of a coming savior. This is a tough topic and one theologians have wrestled over for years. For myself, I know God saved me. Looking back on it, I am amazed, "how did someone like me come to know Jesus." And so, I trust that God will not fail to reach anyone who desires to know him.

This is where I think your objection fails. You presume that people are good. They aren't. You presume that 'good' people are being cast into outer darkness by some sadistic prison gaurd in the sky. (This is your view, not the Bibles) The problem is really your own testimony. You don't live in Afghanistan. You don't live in ignorance of the Gospel. You have all this afforded to you, yet you rebel against it and reject it with utter disdain. Yet, somehow, you try to convince us you are genuinely concerned about someone, somewhere, you've never met, hearing a message that you reject with all your heart. A fairytale as you say. The faults with this objection have already been pointed out. I gave you the example of the life preserver. Do you seriously pretend to think that rejecting the life preserver is rational?

All that said, here is the important part. You do have revelation about Jesus Christ. You have revelation about your own sin, as you have confessed to be a liar, etc. You have revelation that (according to the scriptures) your sin has put you at enmity with God. (The bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire Rev. 21:8) God in His mercy sent Christ to die for your sins. To pay the ransom to set you free. As Jesus stated, rejecting the revelation of His message means you will die in your sins. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins." (John 8:24)
Here we have an example of rejection of revelation. They heard and knew the claims of Jesus. They rejected. Jesus said, because of this rejection, they wil die in their sins. And thus, they will be judged by their deeds. Of course all that sin becomes secondary in light of their greatest deed. That of rejecting their own salvation.

Not liking the taste of the medicine doesn't make it any less the cure. Your conscience bears witness to your need for saving. Everything I've written is because I value your life, not to win an argument. I'd be happy to be the fairytale guy, if it means I can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And if you reject Christ you will die in your sin. You will face an eternal, holy and righteous God. God is good and just and loving. Because he is all of those things He must bring justice. He must reveal His wrath against all injustice, oppression and iniquity wherever it is found. You've decided that pardon doesn't taste good to you, and so have decided to face judgement and give account on your own. That my friend, grieves me. Repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

[wazatron]

Jlay quote:
This is where I think your objection fails. You presume that people are good. They aren't. You presume that 'good' people are being cast into outer darkness by some sadistic prison gaurd in the sky. (This is your view, not the Bibles) The problem is really your own testimony. You don't live in Afghanistan. You don't live in ignorance of the Gospel. You have all this afforded to you, yet you rebel against it and reject it with utter disdain. Yet, somehow, you try to convince us you are genuinely concerned about someone, somewhere, you've never met, hearing a message that you reject with all your heart. A fairytale as you say. The faults with this objection have already been pointed out. I gave you the example of the life preserver. Do you seriously pretend to think that rejecting the life preserver is rational?

And if you reject Christ you will die in your sin. You will face an eternal, holy and righteous God. God is good and just and loving. Because he is all of those things He must bring justice. He must reveal His wrath against all injustice, oppression and iniquity wherever it is found. You've decided that pardon doesn't taste good to you, and so have decided to face judgement and give account on your own. That my friend, grieves me. Repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

RESPONSE
A couple issues here Jlay.
God created man. He created him as a sinner.
In his Omniscience he would know billions upon billions of souls will be damned to hell, more so than those entering Heaven. Does this sound like a righteous, just, good all loving God?
And to punish so many people in such a tortureous way becasue of a naive adam and eve who took a bite of an apple?
If i was to leave my young son at home with a delicious box of chocolates in the middle of the dining table and ask him not to eat any, do you think a niave child would do so? And for me then to punish my son by TORTURING him for an eternity sound like a reasonably retort? Is this what a loving parent would do?
God tempted a naive Adam and Eve, and in his omniscience already knew what the outcome would be. There is no logic in this. Even before the creation of adam and eve, God had sentenced billions to hell.

Also this is not about saving ME! You casually overlook the argument of those unaware of Jesus Christ.

Jlay wrote:
Do you seriously pretend to think that rejecting the life preserver is rational?

Jlay, your argument above is not sound. If i was drowning in an ocean, yes it would be rational to accept the preserver. Let me ask you, is it rational to accept a preserver if you are in the desert, or if you are not drowning? The anwser i hope is that it is not rational. To say i am drowing when i am actually NOT is based on YOUR believe of the bible.

[jlay]

God created man. He created him as a sinner.
In his Omniscience he would know billions upon billions of souls will be damned to hell, more so than those entering Heaven.

Where does it say man was created as a sinner? Chapter, verse.

Yes, God foreknows. However, His foreknowldege is perfect, your and mine, not so much. Should God punish injustice, iniquity and oppression even if He foreknows it will happen? How does his forknowledge negate His obligation to His justice?
Where did you compile your statistics?
Again, your objection presumes that people are good, and that God is doing bad things to them. I've already covered this in detail. God created people in a state of grace. Man fell from grace. Each man is in one sense a victim of this fall, but that in know way negates a persons responsibility for their own wicked acts. For example, let's just say for the sake of argument that there is no eternal creator, and we live in a 100% materialistic world. When you lie, who is responsible for it?

Does this sound like a righteous, just, good all loving God?

How are you defining the words righteous and loving? If there is no God then you have absolutely no way to qualify righteous or loving. You have to smuggle in objective morality, and a Christian worldview for those words to have any meaning in the sense you are using them. See my post http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4&start=15

And to punish so many people in such a tortureous way becasue of a naive adam and eve who took a bite of an apple?

Again, a fundemental misunderstanding. Where does it say that you are condemned to Hell because of this? This, like your other objections, is an emotional objection based on your distorted view of scripture that trivializes disobedience. And the bible never mentions an apple. You are importing your own views onto the text.

If i was to leave my young son at home with a delicious box of chocolates in the middle of the dining table and ask him not to eat any, do you think a niave child would do so? And for me then to punish my son by TORTURING him for an eternity sound like a reasonably retort? Is this what a loving parent would do?

OK, let's examine your analogy. By what means do you equate your box of chocolates as analogous to the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil? Where do you assume A&E were naive? Where does it say A&E were tortured for eternity for their disobedience? And where do you justify your trivial rule about candy, to the command of the God of creation? Your analogy seeks to trivialize a sacred covenant.

If the account of A&E were as you see it, I would have no problem with your rejection of it. But as you've already admitted, your thoughts on God and the Bible are distorted. If you are going to argue against the Bible then it would be sound to stick with the facts, as opposed to your distorted opinions which often contradict the text itself.

Also this is not about saving ME! You casually overlook the argument of those unaware of Jesus Christ.

We've already covered this ad-naseum. Either you will consider what I've already said, and directly address the questions and challenges presented to you. I have addressed every single other item in this post. You have conveniently ignored multiple challeges to your own position.

Jlay, your argument above is not sound. If i was drowning in an ocean, yes it would be rational to accept the preserver. Let me ask you, is it rational to accept a preserver if you are in the desert, or if you are not drowning? The anwser i hope is that it is not rational. To say i am drowing when i am actually NOT is based on YOUR believe of the bible.

And your point is? You say, it would be rational if you were drowing. Then how is my argument not sound. You just proved it was sound. Now, you may disagree that you are drowning, fair enough, but that doesn't make the argument unsound.

By your own admission, you are a lying, adulterer at heart. In view of the Bible (Just asking you to consider 'if') what makes you think you aren't drowning?
If you were in a desert and someone offered you a life preserver would it be rational? Well, that depends on your perspective. What if the person offering had some information you didn't. That a torrential flood is sweeping in unbenounced to you.
Here is an honest question. If the Bible is true, would it be fair to say that you need a life preserver?
Please keep in mind, I'm not asking you to conceed it's true. I'm only asking, if it's true......

[Kurieuo]

Jlay, all that comes to my mind is Matt 7:6.

Waza, since you are decided in your beliefs, then I request you please respect the board purpose which form apart of the guidelines here, and move on elsewhere.

[wazatron]

God created this magnificient unimaginably huge universe and everything in it - The nebulas, galaxies, stars, planets, dark matter atoms, neutrinos. EVERYTHING we can observe and not observe.

To believe God created such magnificent wonders (which in my opinion, are no less magnificient than life) for man to believe we (a grain of sand) are above all these things favoured by GOD is mans EGO at its best.

My previous post has been removed and i have been warned by the administrator not to open the eyes of the christian world. You could say i have been banished and cast out for eating from the tree of knowledge and disobeying the creator of the site!
SO, this really will be my last post.

[jlay]

Was,

Best of luck. If you are ever interested in a sincere discussion, the door, well my door, is always open.

[CeT-To]

Why is it so hard to believe? Since when is the impersonal ( the universe and its wonders) worth more than the personal & sentient ( human)? Also, since when was the universe created for man? It's for God's pleasure. I don't see what is the point of saying it's man's ego.. even if that was the case which i don't think so lol it wouldn't mean it wasn't true - that's just the genetic fallacy.

Open the eyes of the Christian world? ... the Christian world isn't on a website..

[Reactionary]

God created this magnificient unimaginably huge universe and everything in it - The nebulas, galaxies, stars, planets, dark matter atoms, neutrinos. EVERYTHING we can observe and not observe.

To believe God created such magnificent wonders (which in my opinion, are no less magnificient than life) for man to believe we (a grain of sand) are above all these things favoured by GOD is mans EGO at its best.

That's just arbitrary. Since when does size equal importance? If the universe was small, on the other hand, you would be saying, 'Why would an almighty God create such a pitiful, little universe?' Admit it, you don't want to believe, that's the problem.

My previous post has been removed and i have been warned by the administrator not to open the eyes of the christian world. You could say i have been banished and cast out for eating from the tree of knowledge and disobeying the creator of the site!
SO, this really will be my last post.

Well nobody's going to beg you to stay if you don't want to. Maybe you could try 'opening the eyes of the Christian world' somewhere else, Messiah.

[Kurieuo]

God created this magnificient unimaginably huge universe and everything in it - The nebulas, galaxies, stars, planets, dark matter atoms, neutrinos. EVERYTHING we can observe and not observe.

To believe God created such magnificent wonders (which in my opinion, are no less magnificient than life) for man to believe we (a grain of sand) are above all these things favoured by GOD is mans EGO at its best.

My previous post has been removed and i have been warned by the administrator not to open the eyes of the christian world. You could say i have been banished and cast out for eating from the tree of knowledge and disobeying the creator of the site!
SO, this really will be my last post.

Looks to me like you banished yourself, but I appreciate you respecting this board for what it is.

[B. W.]

God created this magnificient unimaginably huge universe and everything in it - The nebulas, galaxies, stars, planets, dark matter atoms, neutrinos. EVERYTHING we can observe and not observe.

To believe God created such magnificent wonders (which in my opinion, are no less magnificient than life) for man to believe we (a grain of sand) are above all these things favoured by GOD is mans EGO at its best.

My previous post has been removed and i have been warned by the administrator not to open the eyes of the christian world. You could say i have been banished and cast out for eating from the tree of knowledge and disobeying the creator of the site!
SO, this really will be my last post.

Wazatron - if God created beings without free thought to reason - then you could not complain. How just would that be? With free thought to reason comes moral responsibility to those entrusted with it. How shall they use it? Don’t cite God Almighty for your own moral short comings and blame him for them. You know not God or His ways.

An all Powerful God cannot be all powerful if he denies such responsibility to free thinking moral beings he creates as that would not be just to them or to God either. There are times that call for correction when people blather and falsely accuse others and God. When that happens, intervention is needed due to the blathering that refuses to hear true wisdom because it seek is instead to only force all to acquiesce to the blatherer’s opinions. Intervention is done to call one back to his/her senses that is why your post was deleted. The measure of such intervention is stated in the board guidelines – cross it – intervention happens for the purpose of regaining ones senses, to stop and think and come to a decision…

So back to what I was saying and using this as a teaching moment:

For all of humanities blathering, the gospel message is about God justly intervening in the affairs of those born in rebellion: saving and reconciling without violation to those human beings entrusted with free mortal reasoning. It causes us to stop and think and come to a point of decision – it does not force or coerce – it seeks to warn and persuade. That in itself is fair and just. It tosses that life line, at times, when needed, minister’s jump into the water to save another, or God sends a wave that gently washes them onto the deck of salvation. In all cases, an intervening call is given. Sadly, many choose to swim away refusing the wave, the rescuers; the life line.

The Gospel message is about reconciliation, salvation, and it is the wave from God to you now. People like to blame God for all the bad things in the world, but reality tells us, we do those things due to our opinionated blathering. All the badness of the world will be done away with - correctly and perfectly violating nothing God gives or promised. He seals and corrects in due time.

To make Gold pure you need to remove the dross…

You can complain and accuse God for not making the world right – your way. You have that right to freely think this way as that is a gift from God to you called reason. You, like a spoiled rebellious brat demands God to snap his fingers and act according to the dictate of your terms. Doing so, you fail to see you are living in the divine snap of God’s finger right now, justly removing and exposing evil, sin, and rebellion (even within you). Soon the echo of the snap from God’s finger will be complete – so what side of the fence you want to be washed up on?
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