Atheist/Evolutionist

[Ivellious]

Biogenesis itself does not eliminate all other evidence for the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is not part of the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is a separate question in biology. And as far as the origins of the universe...that in itself is one heck of a mystery. It's all speculation at this point, and probably forever. No point in arguing that one with science.

[Byblos]

Biogenesis itself does not eliminate all other evidence for the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is not part of the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is a separate question in biology. And as far as the origins of the universe...that in itself is one heck of a mystery. It's all speculation at this point, and probably forever. No point in arguing that one with science.

And yet certain science textbooks claim abiogenesis as fact (unhindered).

[Ivellious]

Some Christians say it is a fact that homosexuality caused AIDS. Some scientists say that abiogenesis is a fact.

The way I see it, neither view is widely held. I just checked my college biology textbook (co-written by one of the professors at my university and one of the most widely used in the country). It says that there is no scientific consensus for the origins of life, and leaves it at that. Obviously it still holds the Theory of Evolution as the foundation of biology, but any reputable biology textbook does. My point is, just because some people hold to a view without evidence, you can't use it as a weapon against other people's views.

[Byblos]

Some Christians say it is a fact that homosexuality caused AIDS. Some scientists say that abiogenesis is a fact.

The way I see it, neither view is widely held. I just checked my college biology textbook (co-written by one of the professors at my university and one of the most widely used in the country). It says that there is no scientific consensus for the origins of life, and leaves it at that. Obviously it still holds the Theory of Evolution as the foundation of biology, but any reputable biology textbook does. My point is, just because some people hold to a view without evidence, you can't use it as a weapon against other people's views.

I'm not talking about just some scientists, I'm talking about actual textbooks used in schools and colleges throughout the country to educate and mold young minds. However, considering I cannot come up with any sources at this time (I know they are out there, Gman HELP, I know you've posted them before), I will drop this for now, until such time that I can provide credible references.

[Ivellious]

Words from parents are equally damaging. Indoctrinating idiotic views on your kids can be just as bad if not worse than what they learn in science class. Besides, most kids nowadays already know whether they believe in creationism or accept evolution before high school...didn't sway me or any of my classmates as far as I could tell. Plenty of parents just tell their kids not to listen to the teacher in biology if they don't want their kids to learn evolution (and then they wonder why they fail).

I personally have never learned about abiogenesis as a fact or really even as a science at all. I have learned extensively about evolution, but that is an overwhelming scientific consensus, so I see no problem with learning about it as such.

[Byblos]

Words from parents are equally damaging. Indoctrinating idiotic views on your kids can be just as bad if not worse than what they learn in science class. Besides, most kids nowadays already know whether they believe in creationism or accept evolution before high school...didn't sway me or any of my classmates as far as I could tell. Plenty of parents just tell their kids not to listen to the teacher in biology if they don't want their kids to learn evolution (and then they wonder why they fail).

I personally have never learned about abiogenesis as a fact or really even as a science at all. I have learned extensively about evolution, but that is an overwhelming scientific consensus, so I see no problem with learning about it as such.

P.S. I have no issue with evolution per se, only with unsupported opinions declared as fact.

[Bovey]

Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???

[Byblos]

Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???

Bovey, in case you haven't discovered yet, this site is dedicated to understanding Genesis literally as yom being long periods of time. May I suggest that it may not be us who are suggesting that God did something not recorded in the Bible, but your interpretation that may be at fault and needs to be re-examined.

[Bovey]

Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???

Bovey, in case you haven't discovered yet, this site is dedicated to understanding Genesis literally as yom being long periods of time. May I suggest that it may not be us who are suggesting that God did something not recorded in the Bible, but your interpretation that may be at fault and needs to be re-examined.

No no no, as I have said before, you need to let Scripture interpret Scripture, now i'm not trying to make you do anything right here but that's what I believe. If you put evolution and death into the Bible before Adam and Eve you just screwed up God's creation before He even said it was "very good." Death and suffering don't enter the world until Adam sinned, that's where death came into play. According to the theory of evolution there was lots of death and suffering. How can you make sense of death before Adam?

[RickD]

Wait a second, are you suggesting that God did something that isn't mentioned in the Bible? Are you putting words in God's mouth? God said he created the Heavens and the earth in six literal days and rested on the seventh, how can you explain that God created the world through the big bang or evolution? Where in scripture does it say that? I'm almost kind of astonished at how people can take scientific fallacies and put them in the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-19 - " (18)I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, god will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19)and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

How can you take those words of the Bible and deliberately add to the book of the prophecy? Does God not make Himself clear???

Ken Ham Jr., I mean Bovey, I agree that the bible says God created the heavens and the earth, in six "literal'' days. Six, literal, long days. Yom can literally mean something other than a 24 hour day. You really need to search the homesite here, to see that Old Earth Creationists, take the bible literally. Young Earth Creationism(YEC) at Answers in Genesis, is just one literal interpretation of the creation stories in scripture.

[RickD]

No no no, as I have said before, you need to let Scripture interpret Scripture, now i'm not trying to make you do anything right here but that's what I believe. If you put evolution and death into the Bible before Adam and Eve you just screwed up God's creation before He even said it was "very good." Death and suffering don't enter the world until Adam sinned, that's where death came into play. According to the theory of evolution there was lots of death and suffering. How can you make sense of death before Adam?

Bovey, where in scripture does it say that animals didn't die before Adam sinned? And, we're talking about Old Earth Creationism, not Naturalistic Evolution. There is quite a difference.

[Byblos]

No no no, as I have said before, you need to let Scripture interpret Scripture, now i'm not trying to make you do anything right here but that's what I believe. If you put evolution and death into the Bible before Adam and Eve you just screwed up God's creation before He even said it was "very good." Death and suffering don't enter the world until Adam sinned, that's where death came into play. According to the theory of evolution there was lots of death and suffering. How can you make sense of death before Adam?

Please read this, this, and this (this last one addresses death before the fall).

[Stu]

Biogenesis itself does not eliminate all other evidence for the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is not part of the Theory of Evolution. Biogenesis is a separate question in biology. And as far as the origins of the universe...that in itself is one heck of a mystery. It's all speculation at this point, and probably forever. No point in arguing that one with science.

Seriously??

[Bovey]

Genesis 3:15-17
It doesn't need to say that animals died before Adam, it said that they will die if he eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[RickD]

Genesis 3:15-17
It doesn't need to say that animals died before Adam, it said that they will die if he eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Bovey,That's talking about Adam and Eve dying. Not animals. How do you thing Adam would understand what God meant about dying, if Adam hadn't seen some kind of death? It does matter, for the sake of this discussion. You said:

Death and suffering don't enter the world until Adam sinned, that's where death came into play.

So, where does scripture say that animals did not die or suffer, before Adam sinned?