How did purgatory come about?

[Dallas]

My mother is a catholic, and she believes in purgatory. Since I did not grow up as a catholic I have a small understanding of it. So I just have a few questions to ask...

1) Where in the Bible does it mention purgatory/who created the idea of it? Both Bibles included.

2) How do you get into purgatory? I was told it was for people who are not good, but are not bad.

3) Why do only catholics, from my knowledge, believe it?


I'm just curious about it, so I would be thankful if you help answer some questions. A little background information would be nice. Nonetheless, please help.


Your brother in Christ,

-Dallas

[Byblos]

Read this.

[Dallas]

Read this.

Thank you, I will.

[RickD]

From the article(the first paragraph, actually)Bold emphasis mine:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

[Byblos]

From the article(the first paragraph, actually)Bold emphasis mine:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Yes, that is referring to temporal punishment, which most non-Catholics tend to agree with, only before death. Catholics believe that the effects of this temporal punishment are felt one last time after death in order to be completely purified before entering heaven. Purgatory is for those who are destined to heaven.

[RickD]

From the article(the first paragraph, actually)Bold emphasis mine:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Yes, that is referring to temporal punishment, which most non-Catholics tend to agree with, only before death. Catholics believe that the effects of this temporal punishment are felt one last time after death in order to be completely purified before entering heaven. Purgatory is for those who are destined to heaven.

So, in Catholicism, Christ hasn't "fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions"? Sometimes Catholics have to pay in purgatory?

[Byblos]

So, in Catholicism, Christ hasn't "fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions"? Sometimes Catholics have to pay in purgatory?

Oy, we're back on this again Rick? Please, for the last time, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christ's sacrifice because if it did then you'd have to answer the same exact question as to why Christians (who are fully in Christ and for whom he paid the price for their sins) STILL experience temporal punishment due to sin - albeit while still alive.

[jlay]

i think a good question for your mom or anyone would be, "what do you mean by purgatory?"

Instead of judging, you are asking for their understanding of it.

[RickD]

So, in Catholicism, Christ hasn't "fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions"? Sometimes Catholics have to pay in purgatory?

Oy, we're back on this again Rick? Please, for the last time, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christ's sacrifice because if it did then you'd have to answer the same exact question as to why Christians (who are fully in Christ and for whom he paid the price for their sins) STILL experience temporal punishment due to sin - albeit while still alive.

Byblos, I know you've told me that before. I'm asking for the sake of all those judgmental protestants, who think that it means what I said. I'm just simply asking for your clarification, so people can understand what the paragraph actually means, not what it seems to mean.

Could you also define temporal punishment, in the context you used. I'm not sure if I'm following you there.

[Byblos]

So, in Catholicism, Christ hasn't "fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions"? Sometimes Catholics have to pay in purgatory?

Oy, we're back on this again Rick? Please, for the last time, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christ's sacrifice because if it did then you'd have to answer the same exact question as to why Christians (who are fully in Christ and for whom he paid the price for their sins) STILL experience temporal punishment due to sin - albeit while still alive.

Byblos, I know you've told me that before. I'm asking for the sake of all those judgmental protestants, who think that it means what I said. I'm just simply asking for your clarification, so people can understand what the paragraph actually means, not what it seems to mean.

Lol, okay, thanks Rick.

Could you also define temporal punishment, in the context you used. I'm not sure if I'm following you there.

We do at least agree that sin does result in temporal (physical) punishment don't we? Because if we don't then we have a much more complex discussion to contend with so unless I hear otherwise, I will assume you agree that sin results in temporal punishment (a doctrine pretty much agreed upon across the spectrum of orthodox Christianity).

Given that, you asked the question if Catholics have to pay the satisfaction of their transgressions after death, does this mean that we believe Christ hasn't fully paid for them. What I am saying is that if you think Catholics believe that, then you must also believe that as well because evidently Christians still suffer the effects of sin even after (in most cases a whole lot more since) becoming Christians and before death. So Christ's sacrifice really had nothing to do with removing temporal punishment one way or the other. Again, given that, why is it so much different to continually experience temporal punishment before death, and not experience one final mental anguish type of punishment after death due to venial sins that did not result in a temporal punishment before death?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I'm wondering if the Protestants who contribute to this conversation believe that, 1: a Roman Catholic is an heretic? and, 2: cannot be a genuine born-again Christian?

(I'm just curious.)

FL

[RickD]

We do at least agree that sin does result in temporal (physical) punishment don't we? Because if we don't then we have a much more complex discussion to contend with so unless I hear otherwise, I will assume you agree that sin results in temporal punishment (a doctrine pretty much agreed upon across the spectrum of orthodox Christianity).

Byblos, I'm not sure I agree with that. Could you define "temporal punishment", please, and maybe give an example? I don't want to assume what you mean.
Is temporal punishment, consequences we have to endure, as a result of our sin? Like having physical problems due to alcohol abuse? Or, are you talking about direct punishment by God? Please don't quote a Catholic site that is difficult to understand. Layman's terms please, for us simpletons.

[RickD]

I'm wondering if the Protestants who contribute to this conversation believe that, 1: a Roman Catholic is an heretic? and, 2: cannot be a genuine born-again Christian?

(I'm just curious.)

FL

Fl, I don't consider my self a protestant, but for clarity, I'll answer anyways.

1) In most cases that I know of, no. Unless one holds to some wacky offshoot of RC, or holds to some heretical doctrine, in addition to RC. But, holding to RC as I know it, does not make one a heretic.

2) RC does not preclude one from being a genuine born-again Christian.

[bippy123]

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven. 

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.) 

 

Why No Protests?

Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it? 

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests? 

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it. 
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

the teaching of purgatory is that all who go there are saved but they are being purged and prepared to be with g
God. As you can see there is talk of it in scripture and even outside of scripture in the 2nd century frescas and even mention of it by Augustine who both Protestants and catholics alike believe that he was one of the early church fathers.
If purgatory wasn't scriptural Augustine would never have mentioned his mother asking him to pray for her soul and he would have admonished her and called her a heretic for even mentioning it.

[Byblos]

We do at least agree that sin does result in temporal (physical) punishment don't we? Because if we don't then we have a much more complex discussion to contend with so unless I hear otherwise, I will assume you agree that sin results in temporal punishment (a doctrine pretty much agreed upon across the spectrum of orthodox Christianity).

Byblos, I'm not sure I agree with that. Could you define "temporal punishment", please, and maybe give an example? I don't want to assume what you mean.
Is temporal punishment, consequences we have to endure, as a result of our sin? Like having physical problems due to alcohol abuse? Or, are you talking about direct punishment by God? Please don't quote a Catholic site that is difficult to understand. Layman's terms please, for us simpletons.

The first kind Rick, not a direct punishment by God. In fact a different term than 'temporal punishment' we can use is the 'consequence of sin', to me they are one and the same but this last one I think you might be more comfortable with. So we're not dealing with punishment from God but the consequences (physical that is) of our transgressions.

A simple example would be if a child spills his orange juice on purpose. His mom might ground him for a while (a form of punishment) or might reprimand him and yet forgive him. But guess what, the orange juice is still on the floor and someone must clean it up, and who better than the one who spilled it. You see, even though the child was forgiven, he still had to clean up his mess. Another example is if someone throws a baseball and breaks his neighbor's window. The neighbor can call the police and have them arrested but in the spirit of neighborliness he decides to forgive him. But again, we still have a broken window and someone has to fix it.

Temporal punishment or the consequence of sin must still be dealt with even after forgiveness, whether in this life or after.