Homosexuality is not a sin

[CallMeDave]

...............
I won't argue whether or not one can be a Christian and homosexual, that is for Christ to judge and decide.
I do believe that IF one accepts the HS into our lives that the sins we have done and are still in us to do, CAN be overcome.

Paul, The Bible doesnt condemn all critical thinking (judging) and in fact there is plenty of scripture which encourages us to judge, discern, then help a wayward person get back on the right road. As for being a lifestyle homosexual AND a real born again Christian...if a real Christian can be One then Christ failed at coming to Earth giving us the power to be Overcomers of sinful dangerous perverted lifestyles. And the passage in 1 Cor. 5 commanding us to not have anything to do with a professed Christian who is habitually involved in sexual sin , becomes nullified .

I've been lurking around for a while now. I didn't really find anything that I felt compelled to comment on, but now this is posted.

Is heterosexuality a lifestyle? I am no proponent of the homosexual lifestyle much like I do not promote the heterosexual lifestyle as they are not ideas, thoughts, or a stance we choose from one moment to the next based on our whims.

Christ did not come so that we could overcome sin, but that EVEN THOUGH WE ARE SINNERS, grace is given to us by Christ through faith. There is nothing we must accomplish to gain this grace as it is a gift. To say one must overcome the "sinful dangerous perverted lifestyle [of homosexuality] is to claim Christ's Righteousness weak.

This is not to say that this gives the homosexual carte blanche to act as he/she pleases, much like it doesn't give the heterosexual carte blanche to act as he/she pleases. We are sinners from birth and no amount of "overcoming" gains the Christian salvation.

A homosexual can, then IMHO, be a Christian. One that struggles with a huge demon that I could not overcome. If the circumstances were turned, I could not at all, not even joking, could I turn my "love" of women as sexual and life partners...I don't wish that struggle on anyone and certainly would NEVER condemn someone in that struggle to say they are lost unless they switch teams. That struggle is personal. Only the person and God know the heart.

Hopefully I worded my thoughts correctly...

Someone making a lifestyle out of homosexuality or heterosexual casual sex outside of marriage, cannot be a Christian because God makes it very clear both are an abomination, a perversion, and is living by the flesh instead of the Spirit. People who CHOOSE to live this way cannot have any place in heaven , per 1 Cor. 6:9-11 , and even we as true born again Christians are to have nothing to do with them per 1 Cor. 5:9-11 . A real Christian cannot be friends with the world and friends with God at the same time . It is just that simple . It matters not what the current culture says is ok to do when it comes to using another for a copulation (whether same sex or opposite sex) ...it matters only what God has to say on the subject and it is only Gods Word which we will be judged according to. Sexual sin is rampant in the Christian Church today, but because alot of people are doing it doesnt alter Gods view of it one iota. If you are in sexual sin , then you are expected and commanded to repent or turn from it and to walk in the power of God to stay clear from it. Compromising may be popular but it is not allowed with God .

[CallMeDave]

We should not read things into scripture to make sinful lifestyles more palatable the same we should not read into the Genesis account of Creation ' millions of years ' to make it more palatable with popular secular stellar evolutionary thought.

Ya just had to go there didn't ya!

You betcha . Reading things into scripture that arent there, is not nice to do.

Kinda like reading "no animal death before the fall", into scripture? Or is it only a wrong interpretation when it doesn't agree with your dogmatic view?

You dont get death or animals ripping each other to shreds in a perfect Creation (as God announced it was when he looked back on it ALL) ; further, the Creation was thrown into chaos only after sin entered the world ---- those are not 'reading things into scripture'...but is exactly what the scriptures have to say on the issue . Having bloodshed, animal savagery, cancer, sickness, etc... is an affront to God as Creator who said it was A PERFECT Creation , and furthermore, calling him mistaken . This is the sort of thing that occurs when people try to make a hybrid case out of Genesis Creation the same when people make a hybrid case out of sexual immorality by thinking God will let you off the hook for choosing it because of it being so socially accepted.

[CallMeDave]

I think that this discussion has proved how interpretation can lead to different opinions, very different opinions.

This is why most if the times I don't interpret scripture by myself:) , maybe there was someone that was given the authority to interpret scripture:)

No. God gave MANKIND the Bible to be read, enjoyed, discerned, and understood by the leading of the Holy Spirit in conjuction with applying some fundamental scripture techniques , common sense, and scripture validating scripture. There is no specific human being on earth who has been called to be the only mouthpiece for God...certainly not the Popes who have a consistent history of making public prayers which completely nullify what scripture says. If scripture wasnt meant to be personally understood, then you sure wouldnt find scriptures such as 2 Tim. 3:15-17 which declare Gods Word can be personally understood nor Pauls kudos given to The Bereans in Acts 17: 11 for them checking out Pauls teachings in accordance to what scripture says (which requires full understanding) .

[RickD]

We should not read things into scripture to make sinful lifestyles more palatable the same we should not read into the Genesis account of Creation ' millions of years ' to make it more palatable with popular secular stellar evolutionary thought.

Ya just had to go there didn't ya!

You betcha . Reading things into scripture that arent there, is not nice to do.

Kinda like reading "no animal death before the fall", into scripture? Or is it only a wrong interpretation when it doesn't agree with your dogmatic view?

You dont get death or animals ripping each other to shreds in a perfect Creation (as God announced it was when he looked back on it ALL) ; further, the Creation was thrown into chaos only after sin entered the world ---- those are not 'reading things into scripture'...but is exactly what the scriptures have to say on the issue . Having bloodshed, animal savagery, cancer, sickness, etc... is an affront to God as Creator who said it was A PERFECT Creation , and furthermore, calling him mistaken . This is the sort of thing that occurs when people try to make a hybrid case out of Genesis Creation the same when people make a hybrid case out of sexual immorality by thinking God will let you off the hook for choosing it because of it being so socially accepted.

Genesis 1:31 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Dave, you're reading into scripture AGAIN! Where in scripture, did God pronounce creation as "perfect"? I and many others would agree that part of the "very good" creation, is ecosystems. In order for there to be life, there must be death. Plants let off oxygen and are eaten, so that animals may live. Animals breathe out CO2, so plants can live. Animals die, return to the ground, and replenish the soil, so plants can live. Reading into scripture, that "very good" means perfect, and without death, and disease, is only necessary if one has to make a case for a young earth. So Dave, where specifically does scripture say that the original creation was perfect, and without death of any kind? Specific scripture, please. Book, chapter, and verse.

[PaulSacramento]

We should always be careful in interpreting OT passages with terms like "abomination" and such.
Strong wording was made to make a point of course, but lets remember that the only abomination in regards to homosexuality is Man laying with man, are we then to assume that women with women was NOT an abomination?
How about the dietary restrictions that were also an abomination?

This seems to be going back to the issue of choice, IF a person CHOOSES to be a homosexual seems to imply that homosexuality and hetrosexuality are a choice.
The science is still out on the matter so lets leave that to the side for now.

According to James, one of the greatest sins was that of the tongue, echoing Christ about what goes OUT being far more crucial than what goes in.

We are ALL guilty of the "sin of the tongue" and we are ALL repeat offenders on this one, yes?
And we most CERTAINLY can CHOOSE not to be, yes?
Yet...

[CallMeDave]

CallmeDave wrote:

Paul, The Bible doesnt condemn all critical thinking (judging) and in fact there is plenty of scripture which encourages us to judge, discern, then help a wayward person get back on the right road. As for being a lifestyle homosexual AND a real born again Christian...if a real Christian can be One then Christ failed at coming to Earth giving us the power to be Overcomers of sinful dangerous perverted lifestyles. And the passage in 1 Cor. 5 commanding us to not have anything to do with a professed Christian who is habitually involved in sexual sin , becomes nullified .

Dave, just out of curiosity, in your eyes, is anyone who struggles with sin not a real Christian? Or, is it only those who struggle with homosexuality that can't be "real" Christians?

Its not 'my eyes' , its The Bible which I get the truth from. Christians can have real struggles with sin but the very reason Christ came was so we can overcome sin . We are told in Scripture that he has given us a way out of sin which is common to man . Trouble is, we CHOOSE and continue to choose the things which we are supposed to stay away from. Christians can have struggle with homosexuality...but the Bible indicates that that too can be and has to be overcome as well. God knows our heart and he cannot be fooled.

[CallMeDave]

Dave, you're reading into scripture AGAIN! Where in scripture, did God pronounce creation as "perfect"? I and many others would agree that part of the "very good" creation, is ecosystems. In order for there to be life, there must be death. Plants let off oxygen and are eaten, so that animals may live. Animals breathe out CO2, so plants can live. Animals die, return to the ground, and replenish the soil, so plants can live. Reading into scripture, that "very good" means perfect, and without death, and disease, is only necessary if one has to make a case for a young earth. So Dave, where specifically does scripture say that the original creation was perfect, and without death of any kind? Specific scripture, please. Book, chapter, and verse.

Does a perfect Creator announcing his work 'good, very good' sound to you like animals being ripped to shreds for survival of the fittest, cancer occuring in animals, many other diseases and infections occuring in animals, animal carcasses stacked up around the world puetrifying, and many other examples of despair and destruction ? You have a distorted view of Gods character Im afraid RIck.

[CallMeDave]

We should always be careful in interpreting OT passages with terms like "abomination" and such.
Strong wording was made to make a point of course, but lets remember that the only abomination in regards to homosexuality is Man laying with man, are we then to assume that women with women was NOT an abomination?
How about the dietary restrictions that were also an abomination?

This seems to be going back to the issue of choice, IF a person CHOOSES to be a homosexual seems to imply that homosexuality and hetrosexuality are a choice.
The science is still out on the matter so lets leave that to the side for now.

According to James, one of the greatest sins was that of the tongue, echoing Christ about what goes OUT being far more crucial than what goes in.

We are ALL guilty of the "sin of the tongue" and we are ALL repeat offenders on this one, yes?
And we most CERTAINLY can CHOOSE not to be, yes?
Yet...

1. The N.T. also describes certain behaviors as an abomination too. Romans chapt. 1 . When God calls something an abonmination to him, mark it down because he isnt kidding .

2. Its NOT science that determines the morality of homosexuality...its God and his call alone. Your authority is in the wrong place.

3. True, we all struggle with sins and perhaps words from our mouth, especially. But scripture has called out certain and specific sins which prevent a person from getting ot heaven if they make a lifestyle out of it.... and they are in plain black and white : 1 Cor. 6:9-11 / Galatians 5 / Romans 1 . I didnt pen these inspired words of God ...im just the messenger and am expected to believe , obey, and follow these instructions as you are and everyone else .

[RickD]

Its not 'my eyes' , its The Bible which I get the truth from.

No Dave. The bible is where you get your interpretation of the truth.

Christians can have real struggles with sin but the very reason Christ came was so we can overcome sin

Not exactly, Dave. Christ came to destroy sin. NOT so WE can overcome sin.

Does a perfect Creator announcing his work 'good, very good' sound to you like animals being ripped to shreds for survival of the fittest, cancer occuring in animals, many other diseases and infections occuring in animals, animal carcasses stacked up around the world puetrifying, and many other examples of despair and destruction ? You have a distorted view of Gods character Im afraid RIck.

Dave, we are talking about the death of animals, not people. Animal death is not evil. There was no human death until after Adam sinned.
And, as far as me having a distorted view of God's character...Let's let scripture show if animal death is a distorted view of God's character.
Psalm 104:21 The lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God.
Wow! The lions seek their prey from God. That must mean animals eating animals is NOT evil, as you say it is.

And, wasn't God pleased with the animal sacrifice of Abel?
If God thought animal death was evil, Dave, then why would He be pleased with animal sacrifice? Do we have a biblical contradiction?
Is God a changing god? Before the fall of man, God viewed animal death as evil, then man's sin changed God's character, so that He now views animal death as good? It's one thing when YEC says the whole earth was changed because of man's sin, but it's something completely different when sin changes God's character.

[PaulSacramento]

We should always be careful in interpreting OT passages with terms like "abomination" and such.
Strong wording was made to make a point of course, but lets remember that the only abomination in regards to homosexuality is Man laying with man, are we then to assume that women with women was NOT an abomination?
How about the dietary restrictions that were also an abomination?

This seems to be going back to the issue of choice, IF a person CHOOSES to be a homosexual seems to imply that homosexuality and hetrosexuality are a choice.
The science is still out on the matter so lets leave that to the side for now.

According to James, one of the greatest sins was that of the tongue, echoing Christ about what goes OUT being far more crucial than what goes in.

We are ALL guilty of the "sin of the tongue" and we are ALL repeat offenders on this one, yes?
And we most CERTAINLY can CHOOSE not to be, yes?
Yet...

1. The N.T. also describes certain behaviors as an abomination too. Romans chapt. 1 . When God calls something an abonmination to him, mark it down because he isnt kidding .

2. Its NOT science that determines the morality of homosexuality...its God and his call alone. Your authority is in the wrong place.

3. True, we all struggle with sins and perhaps words from our mouth, especially. But scripture has called out certain and specific sins which prevent a person from getting ot heaven if they make a lifestyle out of it.... and they are in plain black and white : 1 Cor. 6:9-11 / Galatians 5 / Romans 1 . I didnt pen these inspired words of God ...im just the messenger and am expected to believe , obey, and follow these instructions as you are and everyone else .

Well, if all that God called an abomination IS STILL one, then I for one am in deep do-do because my diet is not very biblical.
My authority is in the WORD of God, Christ and in Our Father, who is revealed in scripture, in the HS AND the universe created.
My point is not one of morals but one of choice and what TYPE of choice, are you saying that hetrosexuality is also a matter of choice?

I know the writings of Paul very well and NO ONE is disputing that homosexuality is viewed as a sin in the OT and NT and that for a christian that homosexuality is a sin.

[BavarianWheels]

People who CHOOSE to live this way cannot have any place in heaven

Where's your proof that homosexuality is a choice? I certainly don't "choose" to be heterosexual, nor do/did I choose to be a sinner. Sin is in me and as one, deserving of death whether the sin is thinking about taking a penny or a homosexual act. God's grace can cover them both...ALL sin.

You seem to be saying that a Christian cannot struggle with homosexuality. Is this correct? In other words, one must overcome their homosexuality BEFORE they can be a Christian?

Compromising may be popular but it is not allowed with God .

Agreed. God does not compromise. There will be no sinners in heaven, yet all Christians are sinners.

[RickD]

Well, if all that God called an abomination IS STILL one, then I for one am in deep do-do because my diet is not very biblical.

I hear ya , Paul. I guess you can follow me into hell then, because I love bacon! I don't choose to love bacon. I was born to love bacon.

The two unforgivable sins. Practicing Homosexuality, and eating bacon.

[Byblos]

Well, if all that God called an abomination IS STILL one, then I for one am in deep do-do because my diet is not very biblical.

I hear ya , Paul. I guess you can follow me into hell then, because I love bacon! I don't choose to love bacon. I was born to love bacon.

The two unforgivable sins. Practicing Homosexuality, and eating bacon.

Eggs, bacon and milk. Mmmm now that's a kosher meal.

[CallMeDave]

We should always be careful in interpreting OT passages with terms like "abomination" and such.
Strong wording was made to make a point of course, but lets remember that the only abomination in regards to homosexuality is Man laying with man, are we then to assume that women with women was NOT an abomination?
How about the dietary restrictions that were also an abomination?

This seems to be going back to the issue of choice, IF a person CHOOSES to be a homosexual seems to imply that homosexuality and hetrosexuality are a choice.
The science is still out on the matter so lets leave that to the side for now.

According to James, one of the greatest sins was that of the tongue, echoing Christ about what goes OUT being far more crucial than what goes in.

We are ALL guilty of the "sin of the tongue" and we are ALL repeat offenders on this one, yes?
And we most CERTAINLY can CHOOSE not to be, yes?
Yet...

1. The N.T. also describes certain behaviors as an abomination too. Romans chapt. 1 . When God calls something an abonmination to him, mark it down because he isnt kidding .

2. Its NOT science that determines the morality of homosexuality...its God and his call alone. Your authority is in the wrong place.

3. True, we all struggle with sins and perhaps words from our mouth, especially. But scripture has called out certain and specific sins which prevent a person from getting ot heaven if they make a lifestyle out of it.... and they are in plain black and white : 1 Cor. 6:9-11 / Galatians 5 / Romans 1 . I didnt pen these inspired words of God ...im just the messenger and am expected to believe , obey, and follow these instructions as you are and everyone else .

Well, if all that God called an abomination IS STILL one, then I for one am in deep do-do because my diet is not very biblical.
My authority is in the WORD of God, Christ and in Our Father, who is revealed in scripture, in the HS AND the universe created.
My point is not one of morals but one of choice and what TYPE of choice, are you saying that hetrosexuality is also a matter of choice?

I know the writings of Paul very well and NO ONE is disputing that homosexuality is viewed as a sin in the OT and NT and that for a christian that homosexuality is a sin.

Your choice of a diet can be good or harmful to you, but, you are not under any dietary law now and you are free to eat whatever you want...its just that there will be some consequences for eating unhealthy . But when God calls out specific sins (ie: sexual) as being abominable, perverted, and disqualifying a person from heaven....you want to stay far away from them and there is no negotiation on them. God doesnt want a bunch of real Christians living according to the dictates of a sexually deviant culture where theres no difference between the world and godly constructs . If you or anyone else here is caught up in sexual sin, they should stop trying to justify it and turn from it because youve gotton plenty of good warning from scripture .

ALL sexual sin is a matter of choice. No one makes you do it. It is freely accepted. As an example, as a Christian SIngle, I currently have the choice of going to bed with a church going gal who is attractive and whom ive come to know well , but, I intend to forego my fleshly desire and walk in the Spirit because I dont want to grieve God, I know it is absolutely wrong per scripture, sexual sin is wrought with trouble including permanent STD's for life , it uses another for a copulation, Ive seen the harm it brings to people , and ive seen the destruction it brings to friendships. Its not that im some sort of spiritual hero...its just that Ive come to love and commit myself to God while wanting to be an Overcomer of temptation and I dont want Christ or the Christian Faith to be demeaned by others from my poor choices. Real Christians need to stop letting our culture dictate how we should behave and start being set apart for God and his glory. That is our reasonable sacrifice to him for what he has done for us.

[PaulSacramento]

I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.