Bible Prophecies Discussion

[Ivellious]

But as stated earlier, their interpretations were done after the fact. The only reason what they said was correct was because it was anecdotal...They fitted vague scripture to recent events. It's no different than when people take 9/11 and say that it fits some of Nostradamus's predictions. It's just re-fitting already written down material that can be interpreted a million ways to current events.

I'm not trying to make a broad claim against Christianity here, I'm just trying to point out that the "prophecies were true" element of Christianity is overblown in my opinion, because again, to me it just seems like a bunch of vague, metaphorical, flowery poetry that got fitted to Jesus's life after the fact, and to me they are mostly so vague that, again, could have been fitted to any number of situations.

[PaulSacramento]

I think you need to realize that what a 1st century Jew saw as prophecy is not what WE call it here in the 21st century.
All prophecies were subject to interpretation and most certainly the Messiah would do just that, as would his followers as hey were guided by the HS.
As the apostles read through the ancient writings and prophecies, so much was made clear to them by the HS.

What you say here is an interpretation.

As the apostles read through the ancient writings and prophecies, so much was made clear to them by the HS

BUT they were NOT saying that, they were saying that it was a NEW understanding of the scriptures.

They had to say something or else they could not have explained the lack of consistency with the old scriptures.

So the question remains: There was nothing mentioned about Jesus rising on the 3rd day in any Scriptures.

I do understand that they might have had a new perspective on the scriptures, but this is quite specific and pinpointed.

So I ask you again, where do the old scriptures mention anything about Jesus rising on the 3rd day?

Are you focusing on the 3rd day or the rising?

[BryanH]

Are you focusing on the 3rd day or the rising?

That is quite a specific prediction, don't you think?

[Byblos]

Are you focusing on the 3rd day or the rising?

That is quite a specific prediction, don't you think?

Genesis 22:4, Psalm 16:10-11, Hosea 6:2.

And don't forget Job who was in the belly of the beast for 3 days. But I'm sure you will say that's all a matter of interpretation right?

[Ivellious]

So, Byblos, are you saying that because the number "3" is prevalent in the Bible that we can assume three will arise later in all vague periods of time?

[Byblos]

So, Byblos, are you saying that because the number "3" is prevalent in the Bible that we can assume three will arise later in all vague periods of time?

What I am saying is that everything in the OT is a foreshadowing of the NT, everything. There are no coincidences.

[Ivellious]

I'll admit that the NT is a shadow of the OT. Nothing is coincidental because the NT was specifically written based on the OT. It's basically the OT's revised edition, with new rules and with the vague prophecies now being fitted to a more recent anecdote.

And not to be rude, but yes, I do consider your "3" argument to be pure interpretation beyond anything in the Bible. You could probably pick out lots of random trends that make no sense at all but are still there. No where in the Bible does it say "and every holy event will be over three days." Apparently God's favorite number just happens to be three, but that doesn't mean you can read into that and make a that jump every time it works out as proof.

To be honest, I think BryanH is nitpicking on the "where did they get three days from" issue. Personally I think the bigger issue is the fact that some "predictions" are made that are "fulfilled" when one specific event seems to match some random metaphorical poem.

[Byblos]

I'll admit that the NT is a shadow of the OT. Nothing is coincidental because the NT was specifically written based on the OT. It's basically the OT's revised edition, with new rules and with the vague prophecies now being fitted to a more recent anecdote.

And not to be rude, but yes, I do consider your "3" argument to be pure interpretation beyond anything in the Bible. You could probably pick out lots of random trends that make no sense at all but are still there. No where in the Bible does it say "and every holy event will be over three days." Apparently God's favorite number just happens to be three, but that doesn't mean you can read into that and make a that jump every time it works out as proof.

To be honest, I think BryanH is nitpicking on the "where did they get three days from" issue. Personally I think the bigger issue is the fact that some "predictions" are made that are "fulfilled" when one specific event seems to match some random metaphorical poem.

If you take them individually you may (or may not) be right. Taken collectively, to ignore what they plainly reveal is not to be very intellectually honest.

And that was Jonah by the way, not Job in the belly of the beast. Sorry about that.

[Byblos]

But to answer your question more directly Ivellious about the 3 days, here's what it means (from here):

In the Old Testament:

It is the first of the four so called perfect numbers: 3 (divine perfection), 7 (spiritual perfection), 10 (ordinal perfection), and 12 (governmental perfection).
The earth was separated from the waters on the 3rd day.
There are 3 Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel.
The 3 verses of the Priestly Blessing in which the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, God's holy covenant name, appears 3 times (Numbers 6:24-26).
3 times the Seraphim cry "Holy, Holy, Holy" (Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8).
After the Great Flood mankind descended from the 3 sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
3 "men" announced to Abraham that his barren wife would bear a son (Genesis 18:14).
Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son after a 3-day journey to Mt. Moriah (Genesis 22:1-4).
Baby Moses was hidden by his mother for 3 months (Exodus 2:1), and the adult Moses requests of Pharaoh that he let Moses take his people on a 3 day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifice to their God (Exodus 3:18).
There were 3 divisions of the desert Tabernacle and later the Temple in Jerusalem: the Outer Court, the Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies (Exodus 27:9; 26:1-30, 35-37; 31-34; 38:9-20; 21-31; 40:1-33; 1 Kings 6:1-37).
The Theophany at Sinai was on the 3rd day after the people arrived.
God is mentioned 3 times in the Shema (the first profession of faith in Deuteronomy 6:4) and 3 times in the blessing in Numbers 23:24.
There are 3 attributes of God mentioned in Exodus 33:18-19: hen, rachum, and hesed (gracious, compassionate /merciful, and loving kindness).
Of the 7 Holy Feasts of the Sinai Covenant, 3 are pilgrim feasts in which every man 13 years or older must present himself before God at the Temple in Jerusalem (Exodus 23:14-17; 34:18-23; Deuteronomy 16:5-17; 2 Chronicles 8:13).
Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of the great fish (Jonah 1:17); Jonah took a 3 day journey across the city of Nineveh (Jonah 3:3)
In the New Testament:

Jesus' ministry covered 3 Passovers (John 2:14, 6:4; 12:1).
Mary stayed with Elizabeth about 3 months (Luke 1:56).
Jesus was missing for 3 days when He was twelve years old (Luke 2:46).
Jesus took 3 men, Peter, James and John, up on the Mt. of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1; Mark 2; Luke 9:28).
Jesus prophesied that He would arise from the dead on the 3rd day (Matthew 16:21: 17:23; 20:19; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 18:33).
Saul was blinded for 3 days (Acts 9:9).
There are 3 theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity (1 Corinthians 13:13).
The heavenly Jerusalem has 3 gates on each of its four sides (Revelation 21:13)
Christians saw 3 as symbolic of the Trinity, the triune nature of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20).
3 is also recognized as the number of the Holy Spirit.

[Ivellious]

So I stand informed. Clearly 3 is God's favorite number haha

[Byblos]

So I stand informed. Clearly 3 is God's favorite number haha

It certainly is symbolic.

[jlay]

Anyone care to tackle the 70 weeks prophecy?

[BryanH]

@Byblos

So no actual answer for the verses... It's just God's favorite number at work.

[B. W.]

To discuss bible prophecy with people who do not understand ancient Middle Eastern thought of the Jewish people is well almost impossible. The ancient Jews sought after signs (connecting the dots-principles/precepts) in the bible as that is how God chose to reveal himself as clarified in Isaiah 1:18: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" JPS

Isaiah 28:13 explains how bible prophecy works:

"And so the word of the LORD is unto them precept by precept, precept by precept, line by line, line by line; here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". Isaiah 28:13

It involves reason and exercises of reason to connect the dots. Why – one to keep scoffers and mockers of God in the dark, cementing their ignorance and disdain for God, so when final judgment comes – they’ll eat their words so to speak (fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken).

The ancient Jews sought after signs (connecting the dots) to gain a holistic balanced perspective and understanding – so as to gain a completed wisdom. They looked at precepts/principles within each line of scripture that connect to others that contained the very same principles/precepts and thus the bigger picture was formed from this method. This method did not pull unrelated verses and placed them together as scoffers accuse. That cannot be done because the principles-teachings connect in harmony and context in an uncanny manner.

This is a form of thought that is foreign to our own western use of logic and reasoning which is systematic and unable to bend and look at things holistically. The result of this is that one only gains an uncompleted wisdom. One sees the parts only and ignores how each intertwines to form a whole. This is the logic and reason form that many scoffers of bible prophecy use in an attempt to disprove the bible in such discussion as started here on this Forum’s thread.

Using the ancient Jewish method to gain a completed wisdom on a matter the next bible verse also connect the dots as well…

Hosea 6:2 After two days will He revive us, on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.

Isaiah 53:1-12 mentions the Messiah and Isaiah 9:6 identifies that He is God manifest in human flesh who as Isaiah 53 revealed, deals with sin/rebellion problem through a perfect sacrifice only God can do. Hosea 6:2 mentions the result that this person will have on those that believe in Him. He will rise on the third day and from that moment, believers will rise with him. On the third day, Jesus did rise up those that believe in Him as Paul writes in Romans 10:9 beginning that very third day he arose. See how the principles connect?

However, scoffers will smugly reject as they are entrenched in systemic piecemeal logic forms so they can remain in ignorance and rebellion against the one who offers to save their very lives. (Note: 1 Co 1:18 - 1 Co 1:21 - 1 Co 1:22 - 1 Co 1:25 - 1 Co 2:14 - 1 Co 3:19 c)

Then, there are books used in Jesus time that were not included in the Protestant cannon as well that connected the dots a bit more that were used in Jesus time on earth. These also mention interesting tidbits about Hell which is also summed up in Eph 4:9-10, Proverbs 30:4, Psalms 16:10 and as Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 which connect to certain principles/precepts that fit together forming a clearer picture.

Now look at Tobit 13:1-6 note verse 2 and then verse 6

1 Then Tobit wrote a prayer of rejoicing, and said, Blessed be God that liveth for ever, and blessed be his kingdom.
2 For he doth scourge, and hath mercy: he leadeth down to hell, and bringeth up again: neither is there any that can avoid his hand.
3 Confess him before the Gentiles, ye children of Israel: for he hath scattered us among them.
4 There declare his greatness, and extol him before all the living: for he is our Lord, and he is the God our Father forever.
5 And he will scourge us for our iniquities, and will have mercy again, and will gather us out of all nations, among whom he hath scattered us.
6 If ye turn to him with your whole heart, and with your whole mind, and deal uprightly before him, then will he turn unto you, and will not hide his face from you. Therefore see what he will do with you, and confess him with your whole mouth, and praise the Lord of might, and extol the everlasting King. In the land of my captivity do I praise him, and declare his might and majesty to a sinful nation. O ye sinners, turn and do justice before him: who can tell if he will accept you, and have mercy on you? Tobit 13:1-6

Next look at - Wisdom 16:13, For thou hast power of life and death: thou leadest to the gates of hell, and bringest up again.

Now in closing -- As for the number three…

Three days was also correct common wisdom for the establishment of an agreement (covenant) as these verses point out Joshua 9:16-17 - 2 Sam 20:4 - Ezra 10:8-9 so now please note Jeremiah 31:31

Also a threefold witness was deemed the best way to execute judgment as well…(Deut 19:15c)

The number three is a significant number in biblical writings.

Lastly - very interesting verse:

Proverbs 30:4 NKJV, "Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?"

Note: All OT bible quotes are from the JPS version and all NT bible quotes are from the NKJV unless otherwise referenced
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[Byblos]

@Byblos

So no actual answer for the verses... It's just God's favorite number at work.

So no answer will be satisfactory I presume. The more pressing question is why you are insisting on a specific and direct prophecy, from the OT no less, precisely having to do with the resurrection after 3 days. Is it perhaps because you are stacking the deck? How about looking at all the other prophecies regarding The Messiah's coming? How about Jesus' own words that if they tare the temple down he will rebuild it in 3 days? I mean if nothing else, those are some deeply prophetic words if the resurrection is a fact, don't you think?