Bible Prophecies Discussion

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein »

jlay wrote:gooder point FL
I have an even gooder professy that BrandH cant touch:

The professy in Ezekiel 12:12-14 had its fullfullment in Jeremiah 39:4-7. So, the professy was write down 200+ years before the fullfullment.

OK BrandH, less see you shoot that one down, HA!

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by Byblos »

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
jlay wrote:gooder point FL
I have an even gooder professy that BrandH cant touch:

The professy in Ezekiel 12:12-14 had its fullfullment in Jeremiah 39:4-7. So, the professy was write down 200+ years before the fullfullment.

OK BrandH, less see you shoot that one down, HA!

FL
And Bryan might say oh no, that doesn't count, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. :shakehead:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by Byblos »

BryanH wrote:
Not a single shred of evidence to back this up, only mere assertions. On the other hand, we have historical, archaeological, anecdotal, traditional, evidence to support the claims of the Bible.
I like it when the roles change. Now who is the one who doesn't use logic and reason?
What possible historical, archaeological, anecdotal, traditional evidence you have that the prophecy was made before it happened? Do you have other reliable sources where the prophecy was written (before it happened of course)?
The roles have changed? I don't think so Bryan. The Bible exists. It is widely accepted as a historical document (at a minimum, and even among non-believers). It is a self-authenticating book supported by historical accounts. There is no evidence whatsoever to contradict it (regarding its claims of prophecies) so the burden of proof is on you to support the assertion that the prophecies were written after the fact. Absence of such evidence, your assertion is baseless. Like I said, a nice piece of evidence would be a contemporaneous document stating that at least 2 of the Gospel writers conspired with one another. Only 2, I won't event ask for all 4 (not to mention Paul who was so far removed from them as to make collusion a virtual impossibility) but that's pretty much what you would need for your assertion to be true, for all 4 Gospel writers to have gotten together at some point and got their stories straight so-to-speak down to the most minutest detail. Any evidence of that at all? No? And if such evidence ever materialized, it would spell the largest, most sophisticated conspiracy theory ever devised in the history of humankind. Does anyone believe simple Jewish fishermen from 2 millennia ago were capable of carrying out such a conspiracy? Perhaps some would but one would literally have to abandon all rationality to believe that.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
User avatar
BryanH
Valued Member
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:50 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by BryanH »

The roles have changed? I don't think so Bryan. The Bible exists. It is widely accepted as a historical document (at a minimum, and even among non-believers). It is a self-authenticating book supported by historical accounts. There is no evidence whatsoever to contradict it (regarding its claims of prophecies) so the burden of proof is on you to support the assertion that the prophecies were written after the fact. Absence of such evidence, your assertion is baseless. Like I said, a nice piece of evidence would be a contemporaneous document stating that at least 2 of the Gospel writers conspired with one another. Only 2, I won't event ask for all 4 (not to mention Paul who was so far removed from them as to make collusion a virtual impossibility) but that's pretty much what you would need for your assertion to be true, for all 4 Gospel writers to have gotten together at some point and got their stories straight so-to-speak down to the most minutest detail. Any evidence of that at all? No? And if such evidence ever materialized, it would spell the largest, most sophisticated conspiracy theory ever devised in the history of humankind. Does anyone believe simple Jewish fishermen from 2 millennia ago were capable of carrying out such a conspiracy? Perhaps some would but one would literally have to abandon all rationality to believe that.
It's not an actual conspiracy, but since the Bible is full of metaphors, that makes you wonder: why weren't things written in a clear manner for everybody to understand? Why is the Bible cryptic? Because it wasn't meant/designed for the normal average guy. It was written so only a few people of the time could offer explanation/guidance/advice on it. Why?

At least when it comes to prophecies, they should have been made crystal clear so no doubt is there. But what do you know? Prophecies come with metaphors as well.
assertion that the prophecies were written after the fact
The proof that they were written after it happened exists as I said because of the dating of books that compile the Bible.
You are asking for proof that the prophets actually made the prophecy before it happened. And I asked you: are there any other historical documents that mention that prophecy before it actually happened? You said that such evidence exists. Please tell me where I can find it.
So the burden proof is not on me but actually on you.
I have to prove everything, but you have to prove nothing. I'm supposed to believe everything you say.
Let me put this way: if you write a prophecy for the lottery numbers after the lottery numbers are known, what is the use of that prophecy? Zero.
4 Gospel writers to have gotten together at some point and got their stories straight so-to-speak down to the most minutest detail.
The Gospels weren't written all at the same time...

Approximate Dates

Mattew 50 AD
Luke 63 AD
Mark 65 AD
John 80-90 AD

How could they have had stories straight to the most minute detail? You figure it out.
It's again the chronology of events. You don't need to have a conspiracy. You just need to see where they got their inspiration from.

@Furstentum Liechtenstein

Will take a look later at what the prophecy you mentioned. Promise!! :P
User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3551
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by neo-x »

Bryan,

you are attempting to bring a modern standard into an ancient text. That's a fallacy to start with. I think if there had been camcorders in the biblical times, you know, we might have captured a few prophets prophesying, just to satisfy your intellectual needs (but again you can always claim they were manipulated). But the truth is, evidence for that age, comes in that age. I am actually amused as to what type of evidence do you need? For instance, if a book written by ancient Jews, looks like faked to you, why would you ever trust a second book corroborating it from that same age. I mean if you are agreed to believe the second one, to be true, what makes you question the first one in the first place?

You see, you are asking for historical proof, well the bible is historical. You are basing an argument on "absence of additional proof". Which naturally entails that absence of proof is not proof of absence. The proposition, that since the prophecies were written after the prophecy happened, that they were interpreted in such a way that they seem to fulfill the prophecy, carries the answer in there. You are indirectly supporting the idea that there was a way to record prophecy preserve it for hundreds of years, and then interpret it much later. Well that's a problem you need to first, address as it shoots your argument right in the middle of the head.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
User avatar
BryanH
Valued Member
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:50 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by BryanH »

you are attempting to bring a modern standard into an ancient text. That's a fallacy to start with. I think if there had been camcorders in the biblical times, you know, we might have captured a few prophets prophesying, just to satisfy your intellectual needs (but again you can always claim they were manipulated). But the truth is, evidence for that age, comes in that age. I am actually amused as to what type of evidence do you need? For instance, if a book written by ancient Jews, looks like faked to you, why would you ever trust a second book corroborating it from that same age. I mean if you are agreed to believe the second one, to be true, what makes you question the first one in the first place?

You see, you are asking for historical proof, well the bible is historical. You are basing an argument on "absence of additional proof". Which naturally entails that absence of proof is not proof of absence. The proposition, that since the prophecies were written after the prophecy happened, that they were interpreted in such a way that they seem to fulfill the prophecy, carries the answer in there. You are indirectly supporting the idea that there was a way to record prophecy preserve it for hundreds of years, and then interpret it much later. Well that's a problem you need to first, address as it shoots your argument right in the middle of the head.
What modern standard? Time? Chronology? Common sense? Logic? Reason? All of them are quite old. I said this to many people here but you seem to not want to read that: people in those times didn't have access to schools and education. There were actually just a few people who participated in actually writing the books that compile the Bible. The rest were followers who knew very little about it.

By the way, have you seen any present prophets? I don't. Ask yourself why is that.

I think that my first comment on this topic is very clear: I said that some prophecies are DEBATABLE and some DIDN'T HAPPEN. I don't dismiss the idea of people being able to foretell the future. We already have in theory a method to travel to the future, but we haven't got the technology for it.

If you don't want to accept the fact that prophecies are debatable because they were written after they actually happened, well, that is a matter of personal choice when you lack the proof to demonstrate it.
you are attempting to bring a modern standard into an ancient text. That's a fallacy to start with.
So I shouldn't bring up any new ideas just because the text is ancient... It's not a fallacy, it's actually a smart thing to do. We just have more knowledge now.

It's like saying that we shouldn't bring up the idea that Earth is not the center of our galaxy because people in ancient times thought that Earth was the center of the galaxy.
You see, you are asking for historical proof, well the bible is historical. You are basing an argument on "absence of additional proof". Which naturally entails that absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I have to say it again: the prophecies are DEBATABLE. Anyways, at the time that the prophecy was made, they had the possibility and "technology/means" to write it down. They didn't. Not to mention the fact that some of the prophecies were actually written before they happened. So why weren't all the prophecies respecting the same rule: write them before they happen?
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by Byblos »

BryanH wrote:How could they have had stories straight to the most minute detail? You figure it out.
Absence of any evidence they conspired or at a minimum based their testimony off of one another you have nothing, that's the bottom line. You already admit there was no conspiracy, and there is no literary evidence that the Gospels were based on a single source nor any historical or contemporaneous evidence contradicting the Gospel accounts.

P.S. Pharaoh witnessed these prophesies come true first hand and still hardened his own heart, that should tell us all something.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
User avatar
BryanH
Valued Member
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:50 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by BryanH »

Absence of any evidence they conspired or at a minimum based their testimony off of one another you have nothing, that's the bottom line. You already admit there was no conspiracy, and there is no literary evidence that the Gospels were based on a single source nor any historical or contemporaneous evidence contradicting the Gospel accounts.
I think that you should stop with using the word conspiracy.
This is a quote from another source:

Three of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke are similar in content, with common presentation of the work and teachings of Jesus. They follow a similar pattern, but supplement additional materials to accomplish their specific goals. These are called the Synoptic Gospels because they have this common view. All but thirty-one verses in Mark are found in Matthew and Luke. Of the 661 verses in the Gospel of Mark, 350 are found in the Gospel of Luke.
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by Byblos »

BryanH wrote:
Absence of any evidence they conspired or at a minimum based their testimony off of one another you have nothing, that's the bottom line. You already admit there was no conspiracy, and there is no literary evidence that the Gospels were based on a single source nor any historical or contemporaneous evidence contradicting the Gospel accounts.
I think that you should stop with using the word conspiracy.
This is a quote from another source:

Three of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke are similar in content, with common presentation of the work and teachings of Jesus. They follow a similar pattern, but supplement additional materials to accomplish their specific goals. These are called the Synoptic Gospels because they have this common view. All but thirty-one verses in Mark are found in Matthew and Luke. Of the 661 verses in the Gospel of Mark, 350 are found in the Gospel of Luke.
Imagine that, 4 people witnessed the exact same events and have similarities in their recounted stories. :shakehead:

And please cite your sources.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by PaulSacramento »

The synoptics have much in common and the most common view is that they same the same source and then added their own POV/info.
That source has been viewed as the hypthetical document called "Q" and there is no evidence that it ever existed.
So why are there so many simliarities?
Probably because the writers ( or those that dictated to he writers) saw the SAME things.
Of course not all the apostles where with Jesus ALL the time ( it would be silly to assume that over a 3year period ALL 12 were with Him 24/7).
That the gospels were written later is quite standard for historical writings, you wan't find many people writing a book certain events at the SAME TIME events are happening.
An oral tradition was passed on and with it a written tradition of sayings, parables and creeds.
That the apostles eventually decided to write something ( or dictate to be written) AFTER they got older and their duites of evangelizing had passed on to tohers with more "youth and strength" just makes sense.
And when gauging any historical docuemtn we must evaluate based on historical criteria and historocity and not some "modern" view of what we THINK they should be.
User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3551
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by neo-x »

If you don't want to accept the fact that prophecies are debatable because they were written after they actually happened, well, that is a matter of personal choice when you lack the proof to demonstrate it.
Your fact proves nothing. THAT'S THE POINT. Its just a loaded statement, that's all. It carries the presumption that since they were written after, they are faked, which you can't prove. As you so aptly put, its a matter of personal choice when you lack the proof to demonstrate it, it cuts both ways, for you as well.

The prophecies are debatable but not on their legitimacy rather their interpretation and that is - within the framework of the theological scholarship. You're bringing up straw-men to the table. This won't cut it.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
User avatar
BryanH
Valued Member
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:50 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by BryanH »

@Byblos
Imagine that, 4 people witnessed the exact same events and have similarities in their recounted stories.
As I have read, the Gospels are a story of Jesus' life and teachings plus what the apostles taught after Jesus parted this world. So they didn't witness anything. The Gospels are just mirrors of history that reflect what happened. I'm not including John because as I have read, his Gospel is quite different from the others.

As I mentioned in one of my comments, the earliest Gospel is dated approximately 50 AD. That is about 17 years later after Jesus parted this world. After 17 years, a lot of information can get distorted. That is why we don't know exactly what happened in ancient times, but we make assumptions based on historical and archeological sources. You want the Bible to be an exception from making assumptions. At the moment, without proof, assumptions is all we have and of course FAITH.

Now it is up to you to choose which side you want to be on.

@neo-x
Your fact proves nothing. THAT'S THE POINT. Its just a loaded statement, that's all. It carries the presumption that since they were written after, they are faked, which you can't prove. As you so aptly put, its a matter of personal choice when you lack the proof to demonstrate it, it cuts both ways, for you as well.
I can't prove they were faked, you can't prove they are actually true. Can't argue with that, can I?

Anyways, you do understand that what you say means that you are putting trust into some people you don't actually know. You trust some people based on their word alone.

@Paul Sacramento
Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:17 am
The synoptics have much in common and the most common view is that they same the same source and then added their own POV/info.
That source has been viewed as the hypthetical document called "Q" and there is no evidence that it ever existed.
So why are there so many simliarities?
Probably because the writers ( or those that dictated to he writers) saw the SAME things.
Of course not all the apostles where with Jesus ALL the time ( it would be silly to assume that over a 3year period ALL 12 were with Him 24/7).
That the gospels were written later is quite standard for historical writings, you wan't find many people writing a book certain events at the SAME TIME events are happening.
An oral tradition was passed on and with it a written tradition of sayings, parables and creeds.
That the apostles eventually decided to write something ( or dictate to be written) AFTER they got older and their duites of evangelizing had passed on to tohers with more "youth and strength" just makes sense.
And when gauging any historical docuemtn we must evaluate based on historical criteria and historocity and not some "modern" view of what we THINK they should be.
I understand your point of view, but when the apostles actually decided to "dictate" and write about it, many years had passed... As time passes by, the details of certain memories we have fade away. It's how the human body works. Accuracy is not that strong taking in consideration the context in which some of the text were written.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by PaulSacramento »

As I mentioned in one of my comments, the earliest Gospel is dated approximately 50 AD. That is about 17 years later after Jesus parted this world. After 17 years, a lot of information can get distorted. That is why we don't know exactly what happened in ancient times, but we make assumptions based on historical and archeological sources. You want the Bible to be an exception from making assumptions. At the moment, without proof, assumptions is all we have and of course FAIT
It is true that many facts CAN be distorted in 17 years, but CAN does not equal DID.
There were still many people alive that would have called BS on something that was changed.
Paul himself mentions that there were many people still alive that the Corinthians could go to to get "confirmation" of what he was writing.

There is no reason to believe that the Gospels distorted or changed anything of what Jesus did or said.
The sources outside the NT tend to confirm what was written in the NT in regards to the things that Jesus said and did, including the miracles.

Again, you won't find a perfect harmony between all accounts, nor should you and if you did THAT would be more suspect to be honest.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by PaulSacramento »

I understand your point of view, but when the apostles actually decided to "dictate" and write about it, many years had passed... As time passes by, the details of certain memories we have fade away. It's how the human body works. Accuracy is not that strong taking in consideration the context in which some of the text were written.
Oh I don't doubt that some minor details may have been altered with the passing of time and with age and even with better understanding, but there is no reason to believe that the CORE was unchanged.
As for accuracy and taking into account why and to whom the Gospels were written it seems that all the accuracy that was needed, was there and no reason to think otherwise.
If you are thinking of the minor descrepnecies from on Gospel to another, all those issues have been answered ages ago.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Bible Prophecies Discussion

Post by RickD »

Here's some prophecies of Jesus Christ the Messiah, and their fulfillment, from the home site:http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Post Reply