Ok Come on Everyone

[Zionist]

There are times where we will have debates and not always see eye to eye that's expected but something that i read really bothered me. We all know the debate in the Old Testament Study thread between quite a few members including myself was pretty respectful for the most part but i just logged in and was catching up with it and somethings i read really bothered me especially some comments from Jac3510 to Gman. i personally feel you owe Gman an apology for the way you came at him. out of respect for a fellow believer you didn't act very godly and i personally found your comments rude and unacceptable especially directed towards a mod. We all have our differences and some of us may not see eye to eye but we are all brothers in Christ and i would like this whole beef or childish behavior to cease. There's nothing wrong with debating but there is something called going to far.

[PaulSacramento]

The thread being locked didn't give me the chance to replay to J:

Re: Good Tanakh/Old Testament study Bible

Postby jlay » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:51 pm
Paul,

Are you criticizing my reference to those verses?

Nope, I was pointing out that we can't use passages in the bible that say it is authoritative and inspired to show that the bible is authoritative and inspired.
That is circular reasoning.
What we can do is to show that the "timeless wisdom" of the bible is what gives it's authority, the bible must stand on its own merits and not based on what some writers IN the bible say about it,
We wouldn't accept that criteria from any other source, would we?
Granted the bible isn't just "any other source" but what makes it more is that IN it you find passages that say it is, but that it has shown and be proven to be correct.

[Gman]

Hey... No hard feelings here from me. Just another day on the forum.

I wish Jac and Jlay well. I really don't have anything against them. We differ greatly on our theology, but other than that no harm. Can't we all just get along?

Blessings

[BavarianWheels]

Jac simply misses the implications of his throwing out the Law.

The basis of the Law is love, but Jac would have us throw it out (according to his own interpretation of Paul's writings) in order
to embrace The Law I follow is the Royal Law: to love others and to love God..

Talk about circular reasoning...

Jac and I did a few rounds on this same subject a while ago. Nothing has changed here, I see. Jac is still promoting to remove the Law (which is based on love) only to implement "the Royal Law".

And we wonder why atheists love to make fun of us Christians...lol.
.
.

[Gman]

Jac simply misses the implications of his throwing out the Law.

The basis of the Law is love, but Jac would have us throw it out (according to his own interpretation of Paul's writings) in order
to embrace The Law I follow is the Royal Law: to love others and to love God..

Talk about circular reasoning...

Jac and I did a few rounds on this same subject a while ago. Nothing has changed here, I see. Jac is still promoting to remove the Law (which is based on love) only to implement "the Royal Law".

And we wonder why atheists love to make fun of us Christians...lol.
.
.

BW since I've been down this road of Messianic Judaism, I'm starting to understand more and more the message you are trying to convey. Once we start on this road to "remove the law" everything becomes subjective... We replace G-d's laws (or teachings) with our own laws. Furthermore, G-d's laws themselves are actually truly free if we apply them out of love instead of legalism.

[BavarianWheels]

BW since I've been down this road of Messianic Judaism, I'm starting to understand more and more the message you are trying to convey. Once we start on this road to "remove the law" everything becomes subjective... We replace G-d's laws (or teachings) with our own laws. Furthermore, G-d's laws themselves are actually truly free if we apply them out of love instead of legalism.

To add; If God is eternal, then so is His Law...his only written words to humanity.

But Jac would have us throw it all out and live under "love" only. LOL (see my previous post)

[Zionist]

i believe that the word of God is divine and to say that the law in essence isn't important is throwing over half the bible away. like i have stated before i agree with you Gman that out of love we would naturally follow God and his will but not the legalistic way the pharisees followed but the loving way Christ himself did. God showed us through Christ how to follow His commandments, to show us the error in which we were following it and most of all not to throw it away but to fulfill it in it's entirety. i think jac3510 was completely off with his comments and opinions of what you were trying to explain to him. i honestly feel a lot of christians today can be lazy and use grace as an excuse to still live worldly. i see a lot of pastors give a diluted word and message to their congregations and condone in a lot of things in their church to keep or draw new members in instead of delivering a convicting and honest word they sugar coat it and just say God loves you so people continue to live in a sinful nature. I have seen this all too often and it's sad to be honest.

[PaulSacramento]

The law is there to point us in a correct moral direction.
The Law is there to point out what we are to do out of LOVE ( not fear or for recompense).
That said, one of the issues many have is the "obsolete" parts of the Levitical and Deutronical laws ( aren't there some 300+ laws?) and most of the time it is the wording that gets people, an example is the "commandment" to Love God, as if ANYONE can be commanded to LOVE anyone or anything.
There is a "fear" of the law by many people, not that the law is unjust, but that the human nature to do for "recompense" as oppose to love, a fear of the human tendency to value works over the intent (faith) of those works, there is a fear that by obeying the law one is working for salvation.
Wasn't that the "pelagian" heresy?

[BavarianWheels]

Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

We are dead to the Law if we are in Christ. What we are released from is not the Law (that points to righteousness), but we are released from what the Law does...point at sin and therefore condemns us as sinners! The Law remains as God's eternal Law...it is never removed. The Law ownes the sinner without Christ. It says sin exists so the sinner must die. We get an example:

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

My emphasis. Notice she is no longer an adultress as the law would dictate, but she is released from that condemnation of the law concerning the dead husband. The Law still is in effect if she marries another...and so the Law, while we are released from condemnation, is still in effect for the believer to uphold!

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

For in my inner being I delight in God's law

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man* is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind* is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Clearly the sinful mind does not submit to God's law and cannot please God. But to be controlled by the Spirit is to live according to the Law of God...not as a means to salvation as salvation is already ours ( see Romans 8:1,2 ), but because the Spirit now lives in us and is what the Spirit does by nature.

If we step back, we even notice that the requirements of the law are righteous!

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

How any person can promote that asChristians we remove God's eternal Law is beyond me. It is the condemnation that we now remove. The Law remains as holy, righteous, and good. ( see Romans 7:12 )

[Gman]

How any person can promote that asChristians we remove God's eternal Law is beyond me. It is the condemnation that we now remove. The Law remains as holy, righteous, and good. ( see Romans 7:12 )

[Gman]

i believe that the word of God is divine and to say that the law in essence isn't important is throwing over half the bible away. like i have stated before i agree with you Gman that out of love we would naturally follow God and his will but not the legalistic way the pharisees followed but the loving way Christ himself did. God showed us through Christ how to follow His commandments, to show us the error in which we were following it and most of all not to throw it away but to fulfill it in it's entirety. i think jac3510 was completely off with his comments and opinions of what you were trying to explain to him. i honestly feel a lot of christians today can be lazy and use grace as an excuse to still live worldly. i see a lot of pastors give a diluted word and message to their congregations and condone in a lot of things in their church to keep or draw new members in instead of delivering a convicting and honest word they sugar coat it and just say God loves you so people continue to live in a sinful nature. I have seen this all too often and it's sad to be honest.

Yes.. I see that too now Zionist. There appears to be a huge disconnect with many Churches as it pertains to God's covenants and teachings (or laws). I don't know if it is out of fear or just plain ignorance but I've been finding numerous nuggets of truth in my own life when I've been using the Torah as my guidance (for sin and such). Obviously we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit too when practicing it too...

[PaulSacramento]

i believe that the word of God is divine and to say that the law in essence isn't important is throwing over half the bible away. like i have stated before i agree with you Gman that out of love we would naturally follow God and his will but not the legalistic way the pharisees followed but the loving way Christ himself did. God showed us through Christ how to follow His commandments, to show us the error in which we were following it and most of all not to throw it away but to fulfill it in it's entirety. i think jac3510 was completely off with his comments and opinions of what you were trying to explain to him. i honestly feel a lot of christians today can be lazy and use grace as an excuse to still live worldly. i see a lot of pastors give a diluted word and message to their congregations and condone in a lot of things in their church to keep or draw new members in instead of delivering a convicting and honest word they sugar coat it and just say God loves you so people continue to live in a sinful nature. I have seen this all too often and it's sad to be honest.

Yes.. I see that too now Zionist. There appears to be a huge disconnect with many Churches as it pertains to God's covenants and teachings (or laws). I don't know if it is out of fear or just plain ignorance but I've been finding numerous nuggets of truth in my own life when I've been using the Torah as my guidance (for sin and such). Obviously we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit too when practicing it too...

Out of curiosity, how do you decide out of the 100's of Laws in the Torah, which ones to follow?

[BavarianWheels]

Out of curiosity, how do you decide out of the 100's of Laws in the Torah, which ones to follow?

The one's written by God Himself doesn't seem logical to you?

[Gman]

Out of curiosity, how do you decide out of the 100's of Laws in the Torah, which ones to follow?

The ones that apply to us... Obviously we can't do them all (some are for priests, some for women, etc..) but we can do the ones that apply to us and learn from the ones that don't directly apply to us.

And don't forget, there are even more commandments in the New Testament such as Church Discipline, Coveting, Authority, and the rest...

More here.

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/ ... mmands.php

Again, we don't follow God's commandments to justify ourselves. We follow them so that we don't kill ourselves and others (and kill our relationship with God).. Can you imagine living in a country without any laws? I'd call that anarchy.

[cheezerrox]

While I was on the side of Gman and zionist and others, I do want to say that I don't think jac really did or said anything that bad. I can understand his position, and he presented his side well and with respect. There was some animosity that sprouted, but I don't want to blame anyone specifically. Him and Gman both came at each other a bit. I agree, as members in the body of Moshiach, Jesus said that we're to be one as He and the Father are One. Our brotherhood and gentleness need to come before our passionate stances on debates. I think it should be something strictly stuck in the past. Hope everyone's friendly and jolly now. May God be glorified by our unity.