Bavarian Wheels said: Worshipping God can be done in many ways and at anytime. However God's nature apparently suggests there is a specific time ( and in Cain/Abel's case, a proper sacrifice ), set aside by God Himself, to do so. All other worship is fine, however if His will is replaced with our own, where does that leave our "worship" if it is not done in accordance with God's will?
If the Law points to sin ( Romans 7:7 ), then to ignore and therefore disregard the 4th Commandment is to...
Again...this is not the thread for this.
The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
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jlay
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The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
That is the question.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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RickD
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
Thanks for starting a thread on this, jlay. Please, let's keep this civil. Seventh Day Adventism is a denomination within Christianity. Keep that in mind.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 42#p120340RickD wrote:So, are you saying that you believe the only proper way to worship God, is on saturday?
No, but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that. To replace God's day with whatever is more convenient is where sin enters and when the worship becomes like that of Cain's offering...not right and therefore not accepted.
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RickD
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
But Bav, aren't we already accepted by God, through Christ's efficacious offering? Therefore, there is no need for worship on our part. Christ offered Himself once and for all.BavarianWheels wrote:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 42#p120340RickD wrote:So, are you saying that you believe the only proper way to worship God, is on saturday?
No, but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that. To replace God's day with whatever is more convenient is where sin enters and when the worship becomes like that of Cain's offering...not right and therefore not accepted.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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jlay
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
Be more fun to have an all out slam fest, but since you asked, well....ok.
Let's take the context of Romans 7:7. I don't see in any way how one would promote this verse in any sense of keeping a 7th day Sabbath.
First, the Law was given to Israel. Specifically, the Sabbath wasn't a merely day of worship, but a day of rest. If you recall a man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. I don't know of any Sabbatarians keeping this. A common Sabbatarian argument is that the 4th command specifically says, REMEMBER, and why should we forget a command that says 'remember.' This of course is a stretch argument. As if we aren't supposed to remember not to murder, or steal, or covet. The significance of remember in this context is not in terms of memory, but in keeping.
I don't really have a big deal with SDAs because many Christians think the Sabbath was 'moved' to Sunday. As BAv pointed out. The Sabbath is NOT Sunday. There is no Sabbath to be kept for the church, the Body of Christ. We are in Christ and at rest. The Sabbath with all the Law served its purpose in times past.
Although, I doubt I'm going to convince a SDA in this thread, since they name their whole denomination over a legal issue.
Let's take the context of Romans 7:7. I don't see in any way how one would promote this verse in any sense of keeping a 7th day Sabbath.
First, the Law was given to Israel. Specifically, the Sabbath wasn't a merely day of worship, but a day of rest. If you recall a man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. I don't know of any Sabbatarians keeping this. A common Sabbatarian argument is that the 4th command specifically says, REMEMBER, and why should we forget a command that says 'remember.' This of course is a stretch argument. As if we aren't supposed to remember not to murder, or steal, or covet. The significance of remember in this context is not in terms of memory, but in keeping.
I don't really have a big deal with SDAs because many Christians think the Sabbath was 'moved' to Sunday. As BAv pointed out. The Sabbath is NOT Sunday. There is no Sabbath to be kept for the church, the Body of Christ. We are in Christ and at rest. The Sabbath with all the Law served its purpose in times past.
Although, I doubt I'm going to convince a SDA in this thread, since they name their whole denomination over a legal issue.
Last edited by jlay on Mon May 07, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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RickD
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
jlay wrote:
First, the Law was given to Israel. Specifically, the Sabbath wasn't a merely day of worship, but a day of rest.
BavarianWheels wrote:RickD wrote:So, are you saying that you believe the only proper way to worship God, is on saturday?
Perhaps Bav can point us to scripture that sets apart the Sabbath, as a day specifically for worship, for us who are under the new covenant.but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
BavarianWheels wrote:No, but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that. To replace God's day with whatever is more convenient is where sin enters and when the worship becomes like that of Cain's offering...not right and therefore not accepted.
We are. One treads dangerous waters when one says there is no more need for worship on our part. If God is, then by very nature He deserves (and demands ) worship...and therefore we, as the created, need to worship. Christ did offer Himself, but we are speaking of God's Holy day, I'm not promoting sacrifice of animals again. Cain's offering is an example of what is and isn't acceptable when God has specified what is and isn't.RickD wrote:But Bav, aren't we already accepted by God, through Christ's efficacious offering? Therefore, there is no need for worship on our part. Christ offered Himself once and for all.
Edit: Fixed quoting.
Last edited by BavarianWheels on Mon May 07, 2012 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
Great...rape, murder, use God's name in vain, disrespect and/or kill your parents, lie, cheat...all is now permissable. But all of a sudden...that's not logical, is it? The "new" covenant has a Moral Law of 9 Commandments. The one in the "middle" is now done away with. Because if by the "new" covenant one can remove part of God's law, the whole of it can be removed. I think us Christians would have a difficult time pronouncing a person that practices murder, lying, cheating and blaspheming God a Christian as his/her actions would not fit into what the Bible gives as a guideline to judge by.jlay wrote:I don't really have a big deal with SDAs because many Christians think the Sabbath was 'moved' to Sunday. As BAv pointed out. The Sabbath is NOT Sunday. There is no Sabbath to be kept for the church, the Body of Christ. We are in Christ and at rest. The Sabbath with all the Law served its purpose in times past.
Although, I doubt I'm going to convince a SDA in this thread, since they name their whole denomination over a legal issue.
Instead of me "point us to scripture that sets apart the Sabbath, as a day specifically for worship, for us who are under the new covenant.", ( as the 4th Commandment does already ) better the one removing and/or changing God's Law should provide scripture that specifically changes and removes the Sabbath instituded, not for Israel as Israel was not present at creation ( see the "why" in Exodus 20:11 ), but for all creation. Exodus 20:8-11 does a very specific thing. God states the command, states by whose authority and states WHY it is to be kept and therefore who should keep it.
Any Christian that believes the Sabbath is done away wiith, no longer part of the "new" covenant, only for "Jews"...and so on, should take a few moments to read the Catholic response to Protestantism. It's quite eye-opening.
Rome's Challenge
I think I've referred to this before here on G&S...not sure where though.
Adding this link, Rome's Challenge, from where the above link is taken and adds some notes.
.
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PaulSacramento
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
One of the issues that Jesus had was the ABUSE of the Sabbath, not the sabbath in of itself ( he most certainly kept the sabbath).
All will agree that the over-legislated sabbath of His time was in need of change and we all note how Christ was critical of such things.
The issue seems to be whether Christian should keep the sabbath and to an extent, what day to keep it.
Paul seems to be of the mind that for non-jews, the first day of the week is when one would get together and break bread, whether or not we equate that with the sabbath I guess is a decision we all have to make, certianly the gentiles did since they did NOT keep the sabbath and there is no evidence that they did ( not that I can recall anyway).
Keeping the sabbath IS a commandment of God, one of the BIG TEN, but there is no day specified in that commandment.
According to Exodus one is to work for 6 days and rest on the seventh.
I doesn't mention days by name BUT if one chooses to observe it on Saturday, so be it.
If one chooses to observe it on Sunday or Monday or any day, where does the OT say that is NOT to be?
All will agree that the over-legislated sabbath of His time was in need of change and we all note how Christ was critical of such things.
The issue seems to be whether Christian should keep the sabbath and to an extent, what day to keep it.
Paul seems to be of the mind that for non-jews, the first day of the week is when one would get together and break bread, whether or not we equate that with the sabbath I guess is a decision we all have to make, certianly the gentiles did since they did NOT keep the sabbath and there is no evidence that they did ( not that I can recall anyway).
Keeping the sabbath IS a commandment of God, one of the BIG TEN, but there is no day specified in that commandment.
According to Exodus one is to work for 6 days and rest on the seventh.
I doesn't mention days by name BUT if one chooses to observe it on Saturday, so be it.
If one chooses to observe it on Sunday or Monday or any day, where does the OT say that is NOT to be?
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RickD
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
Bav, I'm referring to the need to worship, to gain God's approval, to gain or keep salvation, or to be sanctified. Worship is not necessary for any of that.BavarianWheels wrote:
We are. One treads dangerous waters when one says there is no more need for worship on our part.
Need to worship, or else what?BavarianWheels wrote:
If God is, then by very nature He deserves (and demands ) worship...and therefore we, as the created, need to worship.
Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.BavarianWheels wrote:
Christ did offer Himself, but we are speaking of God's Holy day
Every day is "Holy" for me. Not just Saturday.
I'm still not seeing the correlation between "holding the Sabbath", and cain's sacrifice. Could you please explain the relationship?BavarianWheels wrote:
Cain's offering is an example of what is and isn't acceptable when God has specified what is and isn't.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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PaulSacramento
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
I think the comparison with Cain is in regards to proper and improper offering of worship.
That if one does not offer worship in the correct way, God gets upset.
That if one does not offer worship in the correct way, God gets upset.
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
If you can't see it, then it answers to me why you're questioning whether the Sabbath, the 4th Commandment, and therefore God's Word is set aside by you and promoted as "no longer necessary".RickD wrote:I'm still not seeing the correlation between "holding the Sabbath", and cain's sacrifice. Could you please explain the relationship?BavarianWheels wrote:
Cain's offering is an example of what is and isn't acceptable when God has specified what is and isn't.
Rome's Challenge (a different link btw, but same thing) answers this.PaulSacramento wrote:Paul seems to be of the mind that for non-jews, the first day of the week is when one would get together and break bread, whether or not we equate that with the sabbath I guess is a decision we all have to make, certianly the gentiles did since they did NOT keep the sabbath and there is no evidence that they did ( not that I can recall anyway).
Not only is this wrong, but Christ Himself upholds this Commandment in "as was his custom" - Luke 4:16 . And further established in Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5...unless you think Christ upheld another "OT" or the "NT" which didn't even exist.PaulSacramento wrote:Keeping the sabbath IS a commandment of God, one of the BIG TEN, but there is no day specified in that commandment.
According to Exodus one is to work for 6 days and rest on the seventh.
I doesn't mention days by name BUT if one chooses to observe it on Saturday, so be it.
If one chooses to observe it on Sunday or Monday or any day, where does the OT say that is NOT to be?
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RickD
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
You forgot to mention the "who". As in "who" specifically God was speaking to in Exodus 20:8-11.BavarianWheels wrote:
Exodus 20:8-11 does a very specific thing. God states the command, states by whose authority and states WHY it is to be kept and therefore who should keep it.
He was speaking specifically to the Israelites.
Let's look at the whole passage:
The Ten Commandments
1And God spoke all these words:
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3“You shall have no other gods beforea me.
4“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13“You shall not murder.
14“You shall not commit adultery.
15“You shall not steal.
16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
18When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
20Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”
21The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
Idols and Altars
22Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
24“‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings,b your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.’
Clues that God is speaking to a specific people only.
1)God didn't bring me out of Egypt, out of slavery.
2)Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this:
Are we supposed to make an altar, that God commanded in verse 24? You can't take the commandment of keeping the sabbath, without taking the commandment of building an altar, in the same chapter of Exodus. That would be picking and choosing which commandments to keep, correct?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
God gets upset? As if God's Law is predicated on His emotions...lolPaulSacramento wrote:I think the comparison with Cain is in regards to proper and improper offering of worship.
That if one does not offer worship in the correct way, God gets upset.
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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....
I think you contradicted your own point at the onset without even realizing it. Specifically to ISRAELITES...of which made up the 12 tribes of God's people...of which ONE was the tribe of Judah of which came the Jews...so it was not specifically to the JEWS, but instead to God's people.RickD wrote:You forgot to mention the "who". As in "who" specifically God was speaking to in Exodus 20:8-11.BavarianWheels wrote:
Exodus 20:8-11 does a very specific thing. God states the command, states by whose authority and states WHY it is to be kept and therefore who should keep it.
He was speaking specifically to the Israelites.
See Mark 2:27. Obviously Jesus didn't know what he was saying if it was only for the JEWS...
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