The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....

[Bradigans]

So, are you saying that you believe the only proper way to worship God, is on saturday?

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 42#p120340

No, but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that. To replace God's day with whatever is more convenient is where sin enters and when the worship becomes like that of Cain's offering...not right and therefore not accepted.

But Bav, aren't we already accepted by God, through Christ's efficacious offering? Therefore, there is no need for worship on our part. Christ offered Himself once and for all.

Amen Rick D...

[Bradigans]

Be more fun to have an all out slam fest, but since you asked, well....ok.

Let's take the context of Romans 7:7. I don't see in any way how one would promote this verse in any sense of keeping a 7th day Sabbath.

First, the Law was given to Israel. Specifically, the Sabbath wasn't a merely day of worship, but a day of rest. If you recall a man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. I don't know of any Sabbatarians keeping this. A common Sabbatarian argument is that the 4th command specifically says, REMEMBER, and why should we forget a command that says 'remember.' This of course is a stretch argument. As if we aren't supposed to remember not to murder, or steal, or covet. The significance of remember in this context is not in terms of memory, but in keeping.

I don't really have a big deal with SDAs because many Christians think the Sabbath was 'moved' to Sunday. As BAv pointed out. The Sabbath is NOT Sunday. There is no Sabbath to be kept for the church, the Body of Christ. We are in Christ and at rest. The Sabbath with all the Law served its purpose in times past.
Although, I doubt I'm going to convince a SDA in this thread, since they name their whole denomination over a legal issue.

Amen Jlay.. Alleluia!

--- IN CHRIST ---

[Bradigans]

jlay wrote:

First, the Law was given to Israel. Specifically, the Sabbath wasn't a merely day of worship, but a day of rest.

RickD wrote:So, are you saying that you believe the only proper way to worship God, is on saturday?

BavarianWheels wrote:

but it is THE only day God has set aside FOR expressly that.

Perhaps Bav can point us to scripture that sets apart the Sabbath, as a day specifically for worship, for us who are under the new covenant.

Bav???

[PaulSacramento]

Look, I am trying to understand your POV, really I am, but I don't get it.
Manna? Christ is THE Manna from God.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here...

First let me address this:

Seems you may be the only one "playing games" or at least with a "I'm right you are wrong" attitude.

Forgive me for this tone. I'm simply giving my stance and the reasoning behind it. If it comes off as "I'm right, you're wrong" then it is simply by the nature of a debate in that each one is presenting arguments for or against. I am not presenting this as "I'm right, you're wrong" but that this position is maybe more right than what the rest of the world thinks is right. Certainly keeping the Law (the 10) is not being promoted as a manner in which to gain salvation, we agree on this, but that as a matter of flesh vs. Spirit, flesh is not able by nature to submit to God's Law, but the Spirit, which lives (read; has eternal life) because of being innocent to the damnation the Law points at, does so by nature. This is all backed up by Paul in Romans...as I pointed out in previous posts. In short, Paul, in flesh is unable and unwilling to submit, but knows in hi inner being what is right. In contrast, Paul, by putting his faith in Christ is now dead and lives, not by flesh, but by the Spirt which leads him and if the Spirit submits to God's Law by nature, then we, who live according to the Spirit and not the flesh do so also...not for salvation as we already have gained salvation by grace through faith and not of works.

Now, you said;

Look, I am trying to understand your POV, really I am, but I don't get it.
Manna? Christ is THE Manna from God.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here...

Christ is the Manna from God which brings life...but that's not the context of the manna which I'm speaking of nor of the reason the manna was placed along inside the ark of the covenant.

Read Exodus 16:1-31.

In my non-SDA commentary, it reads concerning Exodus 16:

Sabbath. The first occurrence of the word itself, though the principle of the seventh day as a day of rest and holiness is set forth in the account of creation (see note on Ge 2:3)

Clearly I'm in line with the general interpretation of this text. God sent manna to feed His people and also to reinstate the Sabbath that had been forgotten all the years spent in Egypt.

I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
I am confused however when you state that the sabbath had been "forgotten" in Egypt...are you saying that the Sabbath was instated BEFORE the Exodus, before the en slavery in Egypt?

[BavarianWheels]

I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
I am confused however when you state that the sabbath had been "forgotten" in Egypt...are you saying that the Sabbath was instated BEFORE the Exodus, before the en slavery in Egypt?

Let's see the wording of the 4th Commandment itself and see if we can see if it was new or something being reiterated.

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Logically, God wouldn't ask His people to "remember" something He hadn't already made clear at some point in the past.

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested* from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Having already established a holy day on which God rested at creation clearly establishes the reason for the "remember" in the commandment.
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[PaulSacramento]

So, is there any record of Adam or Eve or their offsprings or Noah or Abe or Isaac or anyone keeping the sabbath BEFORE the law was given to Moses?

[BavarianWheels]

So, is there any record of Adam or Eve or their offsprings or Noah or Abe or Isaac or anyone keeping the sabbath BEFORE the law was given to Moses?

You mean other than God's word to "keep it holy"?

[PaulSacramento]

Did some more research and while there is no direct mention of the Sabbath being observed by the Hebrews before that Law was given, the sabbath was there.
Even after the law was given there were still difficulties in "enforcing" the law as Jeremiah and Ezekiel note, of course after the exile and leading up to Jesus' time it got "overly observed" as per 1macabees and in Jesus' time the Pharisees created rules and regulations that went far beyond the law that was given.
Jesus was very critical of them in that regard.
Still, for the non-jewish Cristian it seems that Paul's words still make it clear that observence of the Sabbath is not mandatory:
Galatians 4:9-12.
and
Galatians 4:21-31

[PaulSacramento]

There is one thing though, no doubt that in Genesis the day of rest is viewed as Holy by God, but as I was reading Deuteronomy I read this:
The Ten Commandments Repeated

5 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them:

“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. [d]He said,

6 ‘ I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [e]slavery.

7 ‘ You shall have no other gods [f]before Me.

8 ‘ You shall not make for yourself [g]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above [h]or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘ You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [j]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘ Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who [k]stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

It seems to say that:
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today.

And since the Sabbath LAW is part of the covenant, Moses seems to be saying that the LAW as given NOW was NOT given to anyone before.

[PaulSacramento]

My Jewish friend sent me this info:

No Sabbath before Moses

The Jewish Talmud says: "The children of Noah...were given seven Laws only, the observance of the Sabbath not being among them."

The seven laws of Noah’s time are listed in Midrash Genesis Rabbah 16:6 (Soncino edition, p. 131),Sanhedrin 56 a, b; and Midrash Song of Songs Rabbah 1:2(5) (Soncino edition, pp. 26-27). Gentiles could be considered righteous if they observed these laws, which did not include the Sabbath. Nor did they include restrictions about pork. Rabbi Judah could say that there was a time for the "sons of Jacob when unclean beasts were still permitted to them." Clearly, these Jewish rabbis did not believe that Abraham had to observe these laws that were later given through Moses — and that would have included the Sabbath.

The rabbis did not think that the Sabbath had been given to Gentiles: "Why does it say, ‘The Lord hath given you" (Exodus 16:29)? To you hath he given it [the Sabbath], but not to the heathen. It is in virtue of this that the Sages stated [Sanhedrin 56b] that if some of the heathen observed the Sabbath, then not only do they not receive any reward [but they are even considered to be transgressing]."

"A non-Jew who observes the Sabbath whilst he is uncircumcised incurs liability for the punishment of death. Why? Because non-Jews were not commanded concerning it.... The Sabbath is a reunion between Israel and God, as it is said, ‘It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel’ (Exodus 31:17); therefore any non-Jew who, being uncircumcised, thrusts himself between them incurs the penalty of death.... The Gentiles have not been commanded to observe the Sabbath."

Further evidence of the antiquity of this Jewish understanding comes from the second-century b.c. book of Jubilees: "The Creator of all blessed it, but he did not sanctify any people or nations to keep the sabbath thereon with the sole exception of Israel. He granted to them alone that they might eat and drink and keep the sabbath thereon upon the earth."

These historical sources show the traditional understanding of the Jews: The Sabbath was notcommanded at creation, and was not commanded for Gentiles. It applied to Israelites only. This is important for our understanding of Genesis, and it also helps explain the way the New Testament church approached the question.

[BavarianWheels]

Still, for the non-jewish Cristian it seems that Paul's words still make it clear that observence of the Sabbath is not mandatory:
Galatians 4:9-12.
and
Galatians 4:21-31

Amazing anyone would equate God's only written words, God's "holy, righteous and true" ( Romans 7:12 ) Law as "weak and worthless" when it is abundantly clear that the Law brings life, but death to sinners ( Romans 7:9,10,11,12 ) so that the Law is Life to perfect beings as they are seen to be abiding in the Law as the Law is Spiritual, to sinners it is death in that it condemns sin. ( Romans 7:13 )

I would agree, however, that observing the Sabbath is not mandatory...but neither is murder, taking God's name in vain, stealing, lying, fornication, idolatry, sexual perversions, ...and the whole gamut of sin. It is something only a person living by the Spirit would do by nature, not for salvation. If the Spirit lives in a person, then that person has already RECEIVED life and now continues in living by the Spirit and doing what the Spirit does naturally...follow God's Law...which includes the Sabbath. ( Romans 8:1 ) The law of the Spirit of LIFE sets us free from the law of sin and death. ( Romans 7:2 ) The ONE LAW of God brings life to perfect beings and death to sinful beings, but the Law is powerless to bring life to sinners ( Romans 7:3 ) because when sin enters, the Law condems and cannot bring life. Christ was sent to condemn the Law? NO! Christ came to condemn SIN!...why? ( Romans 7:4 )???

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,* God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the lawmight be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Clearly, then, what Paul is speaking of in Galatians is NOT the Law (the 10 Commandments) is abolished, but that the manner in which the Law was kept. The contention Paul holds is not in keeping the Law, but in keeping the Law to gain salvation. ( Galatians 3:21 ) but to think or teach so is a lie! ( Galatians 3:22 ) We are prisoners of sin. We are bound by what the Law says we are, sinners. ( Galatians 3:23 ). The Law always did and always will lead to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ) but now that we have Christ's blood that atoned once and for all ( doing away with the ceremonial laws ), we are no longer under "the supervision of the law" or we are no longer held to death that the Law demands when sin is revealed. ( Galatians 3:25 ) All this leads your "proof text" that Paul says Sabbath observance is no longer "mandatory"... Galatians 4:9-12. So in context of Paul's WHOLE thought, the "weak and miserable principles" ( Galatians 4:9 ) are not at all about abolishing the Law, but abolishing keeping the Law IN ORDER TO GAIN LIFE ( Galatians 3:21 )

Furthermore, the context is repeated again by Paul in ( Galatians 5:4 ) in that he's speaking of keeping the Law for salvation! For the law ( small law = ceremonial laws when I'm writing ) is of no value IN CHRIST. One cannot presume that this means there is no value in keeping God's Law, but that there is no value in keeping God's law( Galatians 5:11 ) ( circumcision and the ceremonial laws ) notice he's not preaching circumcision which is clearly not in the 10 Commandments... but faith expressing itself THROUGH love( Galatians 5:6 ). And what sums up the Law? ( Galatians 5:14 ).

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

So if we are lead by the Spirit, we are not under Law, but that doesn't mean we are free from the Law, as Paul has laid out, we are free from the condemnation that the Law places on one found to be guilty of breaking God's Law.
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[PaulSacramento]

But by Law you mean ONLY the 10 commandments, correct?

[BavarianWheels]

But by Law you mean ONLY the 10 commandments, correct?

Isn't that what Paul in Galatians is saying? Did you go through the post and more importantly Galatians 3, 4, and 5 specifically ( as it was what you used to "prove" your stance ) ? I think Paul clearly makes the distinction between the ceremonial laws ( Galatians 5:11 ) ( circumcision ) and the Law that is the 10? ( Romans 7:13 ). I don't mean it, Paul does. Those are not the only places he does so.

Did you read the post or just skim it? I added scripture to support...did you ignore these?
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[PaulSacramento]

But by Law you mean ONLY the 10 commandments, correct?

Isn't that what Paul in Galatians is saying? Did you go through the post and more importantly Galatians 3, 4, and 5 specifically ( as it was what you used to "prove" your stance ) ? I think Paul clearly makes the distinction between the ceremonial laws ( Galatians 5:11 ) ( circumcision ) and the Law that is the 10? ( Romans 7:13 ). I don't mean it, Paul does. Those are not the only places he does so.

Did you read the post or just skim it? I added scripture to support...did you ignore these?
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I ignore nothing my friend, far from that.
It is your interpretation that I am trying to understand.
Lets read all of Galatians 5:
Walk by the Spirit

5 [a] It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence [e]in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even [f] mutilate themselves.

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [g]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [h]please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j] factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [k]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also [l]walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

I ask, do YOU read all of it?

[BavarianWheels]

But by Law you mean ONLY the 10 commandments, correct?

Isn't that what Paul in Galatians is saying? Did you go through the post and more importantly Galatians 3, 4, and 5 specifically ( as it was what you used to "prove" your stance ) ? I think Paul clearly makes the distinction between the ceremonial laws ( Galatians 5:11 ) ( circumcision ) and the Law that is the 10? ( Romans 7:13 ). I don't mean it, Paul does. Those are not the only places he does so.

Did you read the post or just skim it? I added scripture to support...did you ignore these?
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I ignore nothing my friend, far from that.
It is your interpretation that I am trying to understand.
Lets read all of Galatians 5:
Walk by the Spirit

5 [a] It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence [e]in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even [f] mutilate themselves.

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [g]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [h]please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j] factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [k]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also [l]walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

I ask, do YOU read all of it?

I read it and each of these points bolded speak of nothing that does away with any ONE of God's Law ( The 10 ) which is holy and righteous and lead to Christ. ( see the previous post about this ) One cannot take bits and parts of the Bible to prove one thing, but must take the whole of scripture and make an informed interpretation. Paul is clearly speaking against keeping the ceremonial laws ( even possibly including the 10 ) as a means TO SALVATION. ( See Galatians 3:21 and Galatians 5:4 ) Keeping the law or even the Law cannot, I repeat, CANNOT save any person born into sin. It is impossible. The Law exists to point at sin. ( Romans 7:7 - notice Paul cites one of the 10 ) Since we are sinners, we are prisoners to sin and therefore the CONDEMNATION the Law imparts onto a sinner...namely, guilt of sin. ( Galatians 3:25 ) We are no longer under the SUPERVISION of the law...that is that we are no longer being condemned or lead to death as the Law dictates one who sins is bound to.
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