Are those with an intellectual belief saved?

[Byblos]

In other words, Byblos, calvinists say that if we believe in universal atonement, yet not everyone believes, then belief is something we can personally take credit for.

You're right in stating what J is trying to say, which evidently I misunderstood. But I'd still disagree with the conclusion (I think now with Calvinists and not J). It is not necessarily true that if one believes in universal atonement, yet not everyone is saved, that it follows that belief is self-crediting. And that is in the case where belief is defined (rightly or wrongly) as a gift from God, which Calvinists do. So again, I'm not sure how they (not J, as you rightly pointed out) can come to such a conclusion.

[RickD]

In other words, Byblos, calvinists say that if we believe in universal atonement, yet not everyone believes, then belief is something we can personally take credit for.

You're right in stating what J is trying to say, which evidently I misunderstood. But I'd still disagree with the conclusion (I think now with Calvinists and not J). It is not necessarily true that if one believes in universal atonement, yet not everyone is saved, that it follows that belief is self-crediting. And that is in the case where belief is defined (rightly or wrongly) as a gift from God, which Calvinists do. So again, I'm not sure how they (not J, as you rightly pointed out) can come to such a conclusion.

Yes, Byblos, I agree with you. And that's what jlay was saying when he said

Calvinists make a fundemental error in defining faith.

For my sanity's sake, please, no more anti Calvinism threads.
And, if calvinists believe that being able to believe, or "faith", is from God, then I tend to agree.

[Byblos]

For my sanity's sake, please, no more anti Calvinism threads.
And, if calvinists believe that being able to believe, or "faith", is from God, then I tend to agree.

We're in general agreement all around so no anti-calvinism anything is intended.

[RickD]

For my sanity's sake, please, no more anti Calvinism threads.
And, if calvinists believe that being able to believe, or "faith", is from God, then I tend to agree.

We're in general agreement all around so no anti-calvinism anything is intended.

How about an anti-Catholicism thread? We haven't had a good Catholic bashing in a while.

[RickD]

Reactionary wrote:

In a predominantly Catholic society in which I've been raised, I've witnessed many "churched" people - they sit in the first row during Mass and receive Communion, they confess every other week, they donate money to their local church, they know Biblical verses by heart, etc. However, many of them, unfortunately, don't act in accordance with the lifestyle they claim to follow.

Ive seen that as well. From both Catholics and Protestants. Acting religious isn't a substitution for a saving faith in Christ.

Such behave as if they're saints, as if they're in a superior position that allows them to judge you and tell you about how tainted sinner you are, but at the same time they come from families that often hide certain secrets which would hurt their "top Christian" reputation if they were unveiled. This especially applies to smaller towns and communities, where everyone knows everyone.

That's one of my "pet peeves", Reactionary. People putting on a smiley face in church. Maybe people are afraid of being judged by other Christians, so they need to put up a front?

So I believe that there's a lack of humility among certain Christian communities, that may lead to excessive feeling of self-importance, and everything that comes with it.

1Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

IMO, there's a HUGE problem with the self-esteem theology, here in the US.

That's what I sincerely believe. Although I was convinced by factors such as reliability of the Bible (and how it applies to the mankind after all those centuries) and a sense of God's fingerprints working in my life, my faith comes primarily from reason. Philosophy. Knowledge. Evidence. So, my belief is intellectual. But being somewhat of a rationalist, I'm not much of a praying type (you don't see me in Prayer Requests section) or church attending type, in fact people who know me superficially often think that I'm nonreligious.

I tend to believe that all that stuff you mentioned, can lead one to a position of saving faith, where one answers the calling of the Holy Spirit. I myself, am naturally skeptical. If I hadn't seen the work of the Holy Spirit, firsthand, I'd be one of those annoying people here who questions everything about everything. Especially biblical stuff.

Having self-reliance as a personal value, I sometimes want to do things by myself and I rarely resort to praying. And when I do, I often don't delve into it deeply enough - I'm aware of that. What I try to achieve is that the moves I make in my everyday life reflect the Christian morality as much as possible. So does my faith count? I think yes. What do you all think? I'd like to see some opinions.

Reactionary, I see myself in a lot of what you're saying here. I'm a very private person. But, I'm much more outgoing now, than I ever was. I rarely, if ever ask for help. Except from God. I'm constantly asking for His help.

[jlay]

Sorry for the confusion guys. Rick did a splendid job explaining. Yes 5PC would see belief as a commodity, imparted to the elect. Not a volitional or cooperative responsibility of a person. That is not attacking calvinism. That is an accurate and fair assessment.

Regarding belief, i think it's important to know the basic terms and know what they mean. Belief doesn't mean the same thing to all people, and thus not all people are "believing" unto salvation. So, as Jac pointed out, what does "intellectual belief" even mean. I've used the term before, but thinking on it deeper, I question whether I should be using it at all.
Again the obejct of faith is not discussed, but the 'type' of faith.
I will give you an example, and I assure this is not a stab at the RCC.
I worked with a RCC. Nice guy. When I had the chance I'd speak with him about matters of faith. The issue of salvation came up one day, and so I asked a few questions. One was, "how do you know you are saved? His comment was, "I've got 2,000 years." He was referring to the reported age and lineage of the Catholic church. Now, even if we concede the age and lineage of the RCC, will that save you? No.This isn't to say that he didn't place his trust in Christ at some point in his life. But that was certainly NOT where his assurance was. I'm sure he could probably give you a lot of facts about the Bible and Jesus, but he never told me that he was now, or ever did trust in Christ as his savior. My cousin recently announced that he was an atheist. His written statement he put on facebook said that he used to go to church, was a Christian and was even baptized. In addition to some other comments, i never read anything that remotely said, he once trusted Jesus Christ was the Son of God and was his personal savior. His 'belief' appears to have been the activities his parents had him involved in. It's almost like saying, "I used to be a soccer player. My parents took me to soccer. I had the gear, etc. But now, I'm not a soccer player anymore."

unfortunately, don't act in accordance with the lifestyle they claim to follow.

That is a problem, but not sure it is exactly the topic. It could be a symptom that true belief never occured. Or, it could be that they are like many people and don't live in accordance to what they beleive. I mean if you ask any smoker, "do you believe that smoking is bad for you?" you are likely to get an affirmative answer.

[Byblos]

For my sanity's sake, please, no more anti Calvinism threads.
And, if calvinists believe that being able to believe, or "faith", is from God, then I tend to agree.

We're in general agreement all around so no anti-calvinism anything is intended.

How about an anti-Catholicism thread? We haven't had a good Catholic bashing in a while.

Now that's something I could sink my teeth into.

[PaulSacramento]

Catholic or ROMAN catholic?
Because they are NOT the same thing

[RickD]

Catholic or ROMAN catholic?
Because they are NOT the same thing

Paul, I was just teasing Byblos. Nothing more. A wise member of this forum once said(and I'm paraphrasing), nothing unites disagreeing Protestants better than a anti-Catholic thread.

[Byblos]

Catholic or ROMAN catholic?
Because they are NOT the same thing

I'm curious to know what you think the difference is.

Paul, I was just teasing Byblos. Nothing more. A wise member of this forum once said(and I'm paraphrasing), nothing unites disagreeing Protestants better than a anti-Catholic thread.

How dare you call me wise.

[RickD]

PaulSacramento wrote:
Catholic or ROMAN catholic?
Because they are NOT the same thing

Byblos wrote:
I'm curious to know what you think the difference is.

Byblos, you have nobody to blame but yourself for this can of worms.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:

How dare you call me wise.

Byblos, I was clearly referring to #5, when I called you wise.

wise 1 (wz)
adj. wis·er, wis·est
1. Having the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; sagacious: a wise leader.
2.
a. Exhibiting common sense; prudent: a wise decision.
b. Shrewd; crafty.
3. Having great learning; erudite.
4. Provided with information; informed. Used with to: was wise to the politics of the department.
5. Slang Rude and disrespectful; impudent.

[jlay]

The term Catholic means universal and is included in nearly every creed protestant or otherwise. No Christian, in their right mind, denies a universal/Catholic church. Only whether the Body of Christ is actually represented by the Vatican and those who hold office within and for it.

[PaulSacramento]

All christians as catholics in the truest sense of the word( Universal like Jlay said), but there are Roman Catholics ( Under the Holy See Papacy in Roman) and "old" catholics that are NOT under the Holy See.

[RickD]

(getting a good seat for this one)


jlay wrote:

No Christian, in their right mind, denies a universal/Catholic church.

It's funny, until about a year ago, I'd never heard the term "catholic", as referring to the true Church of Christ, made up of all true believers. When I heard "Catholic", I always thought of the specific Roman Catholic denomination.


From freedictionary.com:

cath·o·lic (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: "The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found" (Scientific American).
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: "what was of catholic rather than national interest" (J.A. Froude).
3. Catholic
a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.
n. Catholic
A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.

Perhaps Roman Catholics think a,b,c, and d all are referring to the Roman Catholic Church?