Science and Theology

[PaulSacramento]

A very interesting 3-part essay by Scot McKnight over at biologos.org

http://biologos.org/blog/thinking-aloud-together-part-1
http://biologos.org/blog/thinking-aloud-together-part-2
http://biologos.org/blog/thinking-aloud-together-part-3

[avenger1212]

The topics discussed in these articles are at the heart of what has nearly driven me to atheism on multiple occasions. I can't explain the pain associated with that process, going through no longer recognizing the world and your place in it, having no hope for the future, and feeling (all at once) the misery of every loved one you've lost, all over again in the context they are gone forever. It is spiritually depraved, void of purpose and nihilistic. All that in addition to feeling your beloved Savior, slip through your fingers, into the realm of myth. There are few more hellish experiences in this life, that I can conjure up in my mind. So, it is no small comment for me to say, I am fighting for my spiritual survival this very night, assuming there's any spiritualism to fight for.

A good deal of the problem for me, in science vs. Genesis, is to ask if Genesis is proven to be narrative via evolution, what other parts of the Bible will we be forced to backtrack on? How many other scriptures and teachings, will we excuse ourselves from on the basis of interpretation? What other tenants of faith are reduced will be reduced to pick and chose what is literal and what is not?

We're 2000+ years into this epic, and still trying to figure out what exactly the Bible is telling us. And, we practice our faith on a reactionary basis, adapting it to scientific discovery once we find ourselves undeniably forced to do so, or face the possibility that our holy texts have been complete myth all along. We'll gladly scoff at that concept, and defend our faith because the alternative is unthinkable. However, every time the wrong interpretation "get out of jail free" card is played, our message is diluted that much further, until the dependability of the scriptures are called into question. Will we at some point, be forced to consider Jesus a use of narrative of some sort as well? If our story of the God of the universe is so undeniable, infallible, and inspired, how does it so often need this sort of defense the church once again finds itself taking on?

Two months ago, I wouldn't have remembered very much from my school teachings of evolution. I had no idea the scientific discoveries had put it so far into accepted fact, and it had been so well defined. It was when a friend announced he had become atheist, but that he wished he could still believe, that I started to wonder what could have rocked someones faith to the point they wished they could believe, but couldn't. I found out. I found out how unprepared I was to face this new world of science and the logical onslaught of atheism, from a theological perspective. I found out how weak our arguments have become, as we have been so complacent in preaching the gospel message, that we have allowed ourselves to become so out of touch with the natural world, in a way that we prove our ignorance in intellectual debate. And now, we're again having to play catch up, and realign the integrity of our long regarded infallible scriptures with tangible scientific discovery.

I know I sound angry, and honestly I am. I'm angry that I even started to look into these questions. I'm angry the church doesn't have very good answers to them. I'm angry that we've ignored it for so long, and still do in some ways. I'm angry, that my Bible, and my God is now in question in my heart as I try to reconcile the misinformation I was given by my church, and if I can make the jump to redefining Genesis creation as if that was the way it always was. There's not much if any evidence of the Exodus either. Shall we queue that one up for reinterpretation next? How about Noah, considering there's no geological evidence of a world wide flood, and a local flood has been somewhat elusive too? At what point do apologetics become nothing more than excuses?

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I really don't mean to. I find myself in unbearable spiritual pain right now. I'm confused, disenfranchised, emotionally drained, and fearful for what the implications mean. I work for a major denomination, how can I keep my job if I lose my faith? My wife, who I have tried to protect from my spiritual struggle, is a strong believer. My parents, and siblings are believers. This struggle has the potential to isolate me from everything in my life right now, puts my employment at risk, and leaves me completely alone at heart, and adrift on a sea of pointlessness. Right now, if there is no God, it would have been better to have never lived than face a universe so cruel and so void of any semblance of morality as to let ANY creature ever evolve to be aware of its own mortality. But, even in the face of all that, I find it increasingly difficult to believe . I try to look for evidence to fill the gaps in scripture, and end up with more questions. Is our faith so weak as to crumble at any intellectual rationalization, that it requires us to go to church and ignore the world around us?

If there is a God in heaven that answers prayer, I covet all I can get right now.

[avenger1212]

By the way, if Adam and Eve are reinerpreted as metaphors for the original sin of man, and that they could represent a larger population of early man, why does the Bilble go to the trouble of telling us how long they lived? Adam was said to die at the age of 930. We base Biblical timelines on this sort of thing. Only individuals die at certain ages, population metaphors do not.

[RickD]

avenger1212,

Just from reading your post, it seems like your faith is built upon some theology. Maybe a Young Earth Theology? A theology is an interpretation of the bible. How do you expect to have a secure faith, if it isn't based on Christ Himself. I used to believe in Young Earth Creationism, and something got me questioning my belief in it. Not once did I question my faith in Christ, just my belief in YEC. Are you born-again? Do you have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Or, do you just have a shaky faith in a system? There's quite a difference. God created the universe, and God also inspired the bible. There is no contradiction between these two revelations. The only contradictions come from our interpretations of scripture, or our interpretations of the record of nature. Where is the inner witness of the Holy Spirit in all of this?

[PaulSacramento]

I don't see it as science VS genesis.
I see it as Genesis through the eyes of science.
We may NEVER know ( in our existence here) How God created the universe nor does Genesis say HOW but simply says that God did.
I personally do think that Adam and Eve were actual people and that they were the first blessed by God with His Spirit.
Science has a hard time with ALL the WORLD coming from ONLY two people ( although the flood MAY help solve that but even then the "gene pool" is too small according to science).
Since it is a Hebrew telling of the creation Story it may will be that it is a story of the the FIRST SPECIAL CHOSEN ones or it may simply be the story of THE special creations of God that, after being banished, propagated and "out breed" any other "competing species".
Who really knows for sure?

[avenger1212]

My faith has been built on the idea the Bible is the inspired word of God. I can reconcile just fine, that the church can mess up in interpreting the scripture. I know the church has its issues representing God. I can deal with the idea that the church can mess things up, and people get wrong theology. I've seen it where I work, I've seen it in history. Where I'm having a problem, is accepting the clear meanings of Genesis are going to have to be redefined in the face of evolution. It wasn't a revelation of God, or a new Biblical text that has caused this. Secular science has forced our hands, and we've put it off for decades. The luxury of ignoring evolution has ended, and we're going to be forced with three options. 1. Call the Bible a myth. 2. Use some theological magic to reinterpret the creation message we've stuck to for years, without blowing up the integrity of what we call the"inerrant word of God". 3. Continue to ignore evolution until Christianity dwindles out of existence.

God, I wish I never started looking into this stuff. I want my Jesus back so bad. I cry like I've lost my wife. It's unbearable pain, and yet, the best I can get from other Christians is how I must have based my faith on poor theology. I need a miracle from God, if he exists, and I need it soon. Please pray, don't fight me on this. Just pray, please. I need it, and there's nobody I can turn to around here right now, and my begging God for answers is yet to work.

[RickD]

Avenger, excuse me for this, but you sound like a darwinist who is trying to make Christianity sound outdated. You don't come across as a sincere Christian, struggling with things you are seeing. Nevertheless, I'll take you at your word, that you ARE a Christian, and are struggling with this. So, all of your worries have been addressed, either on the home site of this website, or on Reasons.org. If you are sincere, please do some research, and some praying, and you will see that those concerns are unfounded.

[RickD]

God, I wish I never started looking into this stuff. I want my Jesus back so bad. I cry like I've lost my wife. It's unbearable pain, and yet, the best I can get from other Christians is how I must have based my faith on poor theology. I need a miracle from God, if he exists, and I need it soon. Please pray, don't fight me on this. Just pray, please. I need it, and there's nobody I can turn to around here right now, and my begging God for answers is yet to work.

Please take a look at the board guidelines, and see if this forum is for you.

[Jac3510]

My faith has been built on the idea the Bible is the inspired word of God. I can reconcile just fine, that the church can mess up in interpreting the scripture. I know the church has its issues representing God. I can deal with the idea that the church can mess things up, and people get wrong theology. I've seen it where I work, I've seen it in history. Where I'm having a problem, is accepting the clear meanings of Genesis are going to have to be redefined in the face of evolution. It wasn't a revelation of God, or a new Biblical text that has caused this. Secular science has forced our hands, and we've put it off for decades. The luxury of ignoring evolution has ended, and we're going to be forced with three options. 1. Call the Bible a myth. 2. Use some theological magic to reinterpret the creation message we've stuck to for years, without blowing up the integrity of what we call the"inerrant word of God". 3. Continue to ignore evolution until Christianity dwindles out of existence.

God, I wish I never started looking into this stuff. I want my Jesus back so bad. I cry like I've lost my wife. It's unbearable pain, and yet, the best I can get from other Christians is how I must have based my faith on poor theology. I need a miracle from God, if he exists, and I need it soon. Please pray, don't fight me on this. Just pray, please. I need it, and there's nobody I can turn to around here right now, and my begging God for answers is yet to work.

I hear what you are saying, avenger, and I've heard some of what you've been told by well-intentioned but in my opinion misguided Christians as well.

I, for one, don't think you must have based your faith on poor theology. I don't know whether you did or not. I've not spent any time talking to you. But I don't see why you "must have." Now, I happen to agree with you (against the majority of the members here) that the Bible teaches what we today would call YEC (Young Earth Creationism), that the universe was made in six, twenty-four hour days, and that all this happened a relatively short time ago (certainly not in the billions of years). I also appreciate your historical critique, namely, that OEC arose in response to Darwinian evolution. Most all the board members here deny that claim, usually by pointing to people like Augustine (who was in no way an OEC). So given that, let me just offer you a few facts for you to consider.

1. Whether or not OEC is a reinterpretation of Scripture in light of modern science is open for debate. While I think it is, it's not a simple open and shut case as you seem to be presenting it here. Perhaps you want to investigate the origins of OEC more to see if your critique holds.

2. If it is a forced reinterpretation, so what? Does the fact that the Church has historically held a few mean that it is the right view? Perhaps people just assumed YEC until they were given a good reason to think otherwise. The point is what the text actually says. If the text actually teaches YEC, then whether OEC is a forced interpretation or not doesn't matter. For then it would be a wrong interpretation (even if it is consistent with science). On the other hand, if OEC is what the text teaches, then it doesn't matter if science helped us see that and get away from our traditional misinterpretation or not, for then, it would be the right interpretation.

3. Evolution itself is seriously debatable. You seem to have concluded that Darwinian evolution is a proper way to interpret the data scientists have recently discovered. I don't think it is, but I say so on scientific grounds. So why do scientists so quickly embrace it? Two reasons, I think. First, to deny it is to lose your job. You can't get any funding if you reject evolution. Peer pressure ought to have no place in science, but the sad fact is it does. Second, atheists as a whole have to believe evolution is true; they have to interpret what they find in light of an evolutionary framework, evidence to the contrary be damned. Why? Because it's the only logical possibility open to them. Either we have always been here (as atheists used to hold) or we developed. The only other option is creation, which they reject. So the acceptance of evolution isn't a scientific issue at all. It's a psychological, social, and theological one.

4. Lastly, even if evolution is true AND the Bible teaches YEC, then all you have really done is show that the Bible is not infallible, and that in only one sense of the word. Does it follow, necessarily, that if the Bible teaches YEC and evolution is true that Jesus didn't die on the cross and rise from the dead for your sins? You said you want your Jesus back. He never left. He's right where you left Him. I would strongly suggest that you focus on getting the Jesus question right, first. If you work that out, then you can decide where you fall on the biblical inerrancy debate.

Hope that helps. And yes, I am praying for you.

[avenger1212]

Thanks Jac3510. You make a number of good points.

I was raised in a Baptist church, that is, when we were allowed to go with my Grandmother as kids. Later, my father divorced and remarried, and we were in church together, a lot more often. Growing up in the Bible belt made it really easy to be Christian and never have to face questions others might have, but you didn't have in the first place. I've never had any reason to doubt the Bible at all until now.

I've seen churches and denominations do damaging things, and always was able to sort out mans mistakes from God. The Bible was always the source, and therefore we could stand solidly on its word, even when the church seemed to be messing things up at times. But, when the Bible itself seems in opposition to scientific discovery, this becomes something not so easily dismissed as human nature getting things mixed up. I think the idea evolution is fact at the micro level, where a species may introduce small changes in adaptation to the environmental, is universally accepted. My logic fails me beyond that, which is probably bringing on more fear of the clash of the Bible and science.

I don't know why the mod refuses to take the sincerity of my posts. I guess if you deal with enough wolves in sheeps clothing, you begin to suspect even the sheep. It worries me because I've built my faith on the Bible itself. I've put that faith on it always being the truth, even when all else fails. If it is not inerrant, that confidence and comfort is shattered for me. And, I have to figure out how to pick up the pieces and have faith regardless, or have no faith at all.

Atheists wonder why we can't seem to quit believing once they've presented their "facts", thinking we're too weak or cowardly to do it. I don't think it's so easy as to say that. It's more than just tossing aside something untrue, like Santa Clause. It's even more than giving up the comfort of a God looking after you, and a heaven. It's more like taking the batteries out of a toy. You don't really have a reason to live anymore. I guess I could suck every creature comfort I can out of this life, but that seems more like the cursed skeleton pirates in POTC: Curse of the Black Pearl. You eat that apple, but it's tasteless and sand in your mouth. I hardly gave it a moments thought when I saw my parents put presents under the tree and fill the stockings late one night. I knew that story wasn't true, because it had no substance. Doing that with God seems more like a violin that's out of tune, and only God can put it back in tune. It's so confusing when your mind is telling you, "you know what, there's some pretty darn good reasons not to believe in God after all, and you may be an idiot for believing in him", but your heart says "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

I prayed Psalms 13 & 22 last night. It seems David knew what I am going through.

[Jac3510]

Sounds like we have a similar background. I was also raised a Bible believing southern Baptist. I'm still a Bible believer, conservative, and deeply committed to its inspiration, infallibility, and inerrancy. At the same time, I've shifted my focus just a bit. Here's a question for you to ponder: why do you believe the Bible? You hinted at what apologists sometimes refer to as the "the human predicament." Basically, if there's no God, life really is meaningless. You seem to be honest enough to see that. And that should spur us to look for reasons for faith.

Yet looking for reasons for faith or wanting something to be real doesn't suffice, as you well know. It just means that you will be better able to accept the Truth when you see it. In other words, we have to want Truth before we can accept it, otherwise, when it is presented to us, it's too easy to ignore. Now, my own answer to the question is that I think Jesus is who He says He is. He trusted the Bible. So I trust it on His authority. But how do I know Jesus is who He says He is without referring to the Bible and introducing a circular argument? Long story short, the life and message of Jesus can be reconstructed on a historical basis, and Jesus' identity as God and Christ and His resurrection are the only plausible explanations for the historical data we have. I think that might be what someone was getting at earlier when they suggested grounding your faith in Jesus Himself. Again, just to emphasize, while I believe the Bible is infallible (etc.), just remember that position is a theological interpretation of some of the Bible's own verses. It's not a necessary doctrine of the Christian faith. Make sure you get the foundational stuff right and understand the other issues (which are important) in the proper light!

So if you aren't familiar with that line of thought, do some research on the historical Jesus. A few titles you might want to check out include The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, Jesus Under Fire by Michael Wilkins, and The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach by Michael Licona (arranged by depth and difficulty; Strobel's book is the easiest and lightest, whereas Licona's is the hardest but most scholarly).

Lastly, as a former mod, I can tell you that you are on a bit of the right track. Sometimes, they get a bit gun-shy. Don't be afraid to ask tough questions. Stick around long enough and I promise you'll find some help on your journey. There's a wide spectrum of beliefs here, but for the most part, everyone here is willing to engage in honest and open dialogue. Even if you disagree with some things you hear, at least you can get good defenses for the various positions you see taken.

[RickD]

I don't know why the mod refuses to take the sincerity of my posts. I guess if you deal with enough wolves in sheeps clothing, you begin to suspect even the sheep. It worries me because I've built my faith on the Bible itself. I've put that faith on it always being the truth, even when all else fails. If it is not inerrant, that confidence and comfort is shattered for me. And, I have to figure out how to pick up the pieces and have faith regardless, or have no faith at all.

Avenger1212,

If you are sincere, you have found a great forum, and just about everyone here is helpful. Ask whatever questions you need to. We're all willing to help each other.

[RickD]

Paul,
Those are pretty good articles. One thing that was said, is important:

As a professor I teach my students at least two things about method: face the facts and do not fear the facts. I believe this means we have to face both what the New Testament teaches and what science teaches.