God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Silvertusk
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Silvertusk »

FlawedIntellect wrote:
sandy_mcd wrote:
narnia4 wrote:I think if you accept that God is eternal ...
But Silvertusk said "no God is eternal"?
It is apparent that the context meant that God is eternal, and it is clear that Silvertusk doesn't always use commas, from what posts of his I've read so far. Me, being a "Grammar Nazi" of sorts, tends to have an eye for noticing when someone is being lazy with their typing. Also, note how Silvertusk hasn't been using much Capitalization. He capitalized "God", yet didn't capitalize the first word of his response.

Not to be harsh or critical of him, though. It just irks me just as much as "text talk" and poorly-handled 1337.

But eh, on the subject, Silvertusk was not denying attributes of God when he was writing his statement as a reply to Stone.
Instead, just subtract the "no" or alternately put a comma after "no" to understand what he meant.

Jeez!!!

I was typing from my iPhone. Give a guy a break.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is that enough commas for you!!!! :ewink:
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein »

sandy_mcd wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I'm glad you're a Grammar Nazi! My mother tongue is French
Would that be the Vichy dialect?
No. I'm Canadian...but I can imitate regional accents from France. :ebiggrin:

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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Silvertusk »

RickD wrote:Also, keep in mind, the fact that Silvertusk is British. That alone, should show that we need to cut him some slack. :poke:

Worse than that - Welsh as well. Surprised that I can actually string any words together let alone punctuation.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by RickD »

FlawedIntellect wrote:
Pardon my oversight and use of colloquialism amidst mixed formality. Enjoy the irony. But eh, regardless, I'm more of a "nazi" when it comes to punctuation and capitalization. I still have a bit of work to do with other areas of Grammar, though I suppose you can call me a "Grammar Hypocrite" as well, if you find it to be amusing.
So, as far as grammar is concerned, you're saying that you need to take the plank out of your own eye, before you try to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye?
FlawedIntellect, I'm just teasing. It's what I do.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by RickD »

Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Also, keep in mind, the fact that Silvertusk is British. That alone, should show that we need to cut him some slack. :poke:

Worse than that - Welsh as well. Surprised that I can actually string any words together let alone punctuation.
Silver, I heard that all the British have a drinking problem, except the Welsh, who have a sheep problem. Is that a true stereotype?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Silvertusk »

RickD wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Also, keep in mind, the fact that Silvertusk is British. That alone, should show that we need to cut him some slack. :poke:

Worse than that - Welsh as well. Surprised that I can actually string any words together let alone punctuation.
Silver, I heard that all the British have a drinking problem, except the Welsh, who have a sheep problem. Is that a true stereotype?
Yes that is the usual ones they throw around.

"What do you call a welshman with 50 wifes - A shepherd."
"Wales - the place where men are men, women are women and sheep are nervous."
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by RickD »

Silvertusk wrote:
"What do you call a welshman with 50 wifes - A shepherd."
"Wales - the place where men are men, women are women and sheep are nervous."
:pound: :pound: :pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Stone »

Silvertusk wrote:1) agreed
2) no God is spirit
3) no God transcends space and time although is free to enter our reality as he did with Jesus.
4) no God is eternal.
5) no God is the essential being. No one gave God his power otherwise that thing would be God.
6) no see answers 2-5.

Thanks All

I understand that "No, God is Spirit" . . . .
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by jlay »

Stone wrote:In my opinion and experience:

1. Who is God? - God is the Ultimate Supernatural Power
2. What is Gos? - God is supernatural energy
God is spirit
3. Where is God? - God is in the whole universe
God is transcendent. If God 'is' the universe, or is 'in' the univese, then he is contingent, temporal and material. And if he is in the universe he can hardly be the creator of the universe. Therefore your 'god' sounds more like Zues or some mythical being.

4. When was God "born"? - at the beginning of light
God isn't born. I would suggest you study up on the term 'aseity.' Otherwise we are back to something akin to Greek Mythology.

5. Who "gave" God? - the super natural energy in the whole universe
Then the super natural energy is actually God. If God came from anything, then God is not the ultimate super natural power.

6. What was before the beginning of light? - dark and supernatural energy
And how did you arrive at this conclusion? This definately contradicts the Bible as it says, "God said, "let there be light, and there was light." Thus God is the source of light, not the other way around.

7. Why did we have God? - by accident at the special status of supernarural energy (like Brownian movement)
if God is accidental, then he lacks virtually every quality that would make Him God. Asiety, transcendence, eternality, immaterial.
would you care to explain how Brownian movement can account for a supernatural being. If it could, then we would see multiple supernatural beings. Of course if something is in motion it is because something else set it in motion. You couldn't have a Browniam movement without a Universe. So, again in your situation, God is the product of the universe.


What do you think about my thought? (thanks)
I'd like to know how your 'experience' led you to these conclusions. Whether one shapes a god out of gold, or shapes one in their mind, it is still idolatry. When a person says, "Too me, God is......." they are committing the oldest sin in the book. They are shaping a god in their own mind, which of course is no God at all. The great philosophical minds of antiquity postulated that a supreme being would have certain traits. Natural theology is about 2,400 years old, and has demonstrated most of what you present to be false.
Last edited by jlay on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by KBCid »

jlay wrote:Whether one shapes a god out of gold, or shapes one in their mind, it is still idolatry. When a person says, "Too me, God is......." they are committing the oldest sin in the book. They are shaping a god in their own mind, which of course is no God at all. The great philosophical minds of antiquity postulated that a supreme being would have certain traits. Natural theology is about 2,400 years old, and has demonstrated most of what you present to be false.
Interesting.
You correctly understand that applying a human imagined concept of God is a sin even if one does not physically represent it. However, you have an error in your perception of what constitutes an exhibition of this error. Here is an example of why it is wrong;

To me, God is: Holy, love, a consuming fire, jealous, merciful, one lord, my refuge, perfect, gracious, judge, faithful, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption, true, witness, light...

As you can see I have not commited a sin by saying "to me, God is"... all the things I said. A decent concept of how representing God incorrectly becomes a sin can be seen in the biblical account of the israelites when Moses had gone up to meet with God;

Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Exo 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
Exo 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
Exo 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Most people believe that this story is depicting the israelites performing the act of worshipping other gods. The fact is they were worshipping the God that had led them from Egypt as it is clearly stated "and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." Their intent was to keep the God who had brought them to this place on their side and they simply thought that all they had to do was worship him via their own methodology. They had no intent to worship a different God. The problem was that when they created a representative form for God they sinned because they assumed that represenations of God would be understood by God to be his earthly representation where the people could come to worship him.

So ultimately it is not a sin to say "to me, God is" followed by the truth. Sin occurs when you follow it with untruth. So if you hold a belief about God that comes from anything other than God's word then you are sinning. Examples of this and its similarity can be easily seen in;

The beliefs held within mormonism where they believe that God is simply one in a series of Gods and that some day we could become a god just like him.

The beliefs within catholocism where they believe we can pray to saints and Mary as intercessors to God which missrepresents the governing architecture of Gods kingdom.

The belief that God is a trinity.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by jlay »

K,
We've had this exact conversation before. We disagreed then, and still do.
Interesting.
You correctly understand that applying a human imagined concept of God is a sin even if one does not physically represent it. However, you have an error in your perception of what constitutes an exhibition of this error. Here is an example of why it is wrong;

To me, God is: Holy, love, a consuming fire, jealous, merciful, one lord, my refuge, perfect, gracious, judge, faithful, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption, true, witness, light...

As you can see I have not commited a sin by saying "to me, God is"... all the things I said. A decent concept of how representing God incorrectly becomes a sin can be seen in the biblical account of the israelites when Moses had gone up to meet with God;
Why are you not committing a sin? Because you are not relying on your opinion. You would be better off to say, "I have found through this (fill in the blank) line of reasoning, natural theology, scripture, that God is..a,b,c....." IMO, that is exactly why you shouldn't say, 'too me, God is.' When one says, "too me," they are standing on, or giving the impression that they are standing on, personal authority. So, a Christian would be wise not to state such.
You simply will not read such a statement in all of scripture, where one invokes self in this way.

I disagree with your interpretation of Exodus in two ways. First, regarding your interpretation, and second regarding your application. I could have said gold, wood, stone. I'm well aware of this interpretation of Exodus 32. The text is careful to distinquish 'they' (Hebrews) and Aaron. What we do know is that they had yet to receive the 2nd commandment, since Moses was still on the mountain. We do know that Aaron appears to act the way you state. (Exodus 32:5) Why would they (the people) say, "make us gods" plural? They had just left a pagan nation with many 'gods.'
God's personal rebuke was, "They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’
Aaron didn't say that. Aaron is the only one noted as attributing this to the one true God. That is all the text contains. Unless you have more to offer, your analysis fails. even Moses said to God, "They have made themselves gods of gold." He could have cleared it up and said something like, 'They made an image to represent you.' No, that is not remotely in the context of chapter 32. However, it's a moot point, because my criticism doesn't hang on this account. My criticism is to those who do make up in their mind a God to suit themselves. And, my point is that it is no less a sin than some pagan forming a physical idol. So, for them to say, "too me" (relying on their opinion) is idolatry. Not sure why in the past and now you are so bent on arguing this point.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Stone »

Thanks Jlay
jlay wrote:
Stone wrote:In my opinion and experience:
3. Where is God? - God is in the whole universe
God is transcendent. If God 'is' the universe, or is 'in' the univese, then he is contingent, temporal and material. And if he is in the universe he can hardly be the creator of the universe. Therefore your 'god' sounds more like Zues or some mythical being.
We usually say that God is always with you. So God is everywhere in the universe. The nature created God and God created the Universe
4. When was God "born"? - at the beginning of light
God isn't born. I would suggest you study up on the term 'aseity.' Otherwise we are back to something akin to Greek Mythology.
I didn't mean born; just said "born" to understand easily
5. Who "gave" God? - the super natural energy in the whole universe
Then the super natural energy is actually God. If God came from anything, then God is not the ultimate super natural power.
God came from a special status of the super natural energy. That is why God is transcendent
(ex: a special chemical reaction, create a new thing, it would be better, super. . . . .)


6.
What was before the beginning of light? - dark and supernatural energy
And how did you arrive at this conclusion? This definately contradicts the Bible as it says, "God said, "let there be light, and there was light." Thus God is the source of light, not the other way around.
"Source of light" : that also means a special kind of energy / power
7. Why did we have God? - by accident at the special status of supernarural energy (like Brownian movement)
if God is accidental, then he lacks virtually every quality that would make Him God. Asiety, transcendence, eternality, immaterial.
would you care to explain how Brownian movement can account for a supernatural being. If it could, then we would see multiple supernatural beings. Of course if something is in motion it is because something else set it in motion. You couldn't have a Browniam movement without a Universe. So, again in your situation, God is the product of the universe.


quote]
I did not mean God is the product of the universe. I meaned God was product of the nature
I'd like to know how your 'experience' led you to these conclusions. Whether one shapes a god out of gold, or shapes one in their mind, it is still idolatry. When a person says, "Too me, God is......." they are committing the oldest sin in the book. They are shaping a god in their own mind, which of course is no God at all. The great philosophical minds of antiquity postulated that a supreme being would have certain traits. Natural theology is about 2,400 years old, and has demonstrated most of what you present to be false.
It is too late now, I will answer to you tomorow or the next day.
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by KBCid »

jlay wrote:K,
We've had this exact conversation before. We disagreed then, and still do. Why are you not committing a sin? Because you are not relying on your opinion. You would be better off to say, "I have found through this (fill in the blank) line of reasoning, natural theology, scripture, that God is..a,b,c....." IMO, that is exactly why you shouldn't say, 'too me, God is.' When one says, "too me," they are standing on, or giving the impression that they are standing on, personal authority. So, a Christian would be wise not to state such. You simply will not read such a statement in all of scripture, where one invokes self in this way.
ok "I have found through this line of reasoning based on scripture, that God is Love IMO" I have stated what I could also say as you wish. However,..... to me, God is everything I am looking for.
jlay wrote:I disagree with your interpretation of Exodus in two ways. First, regarding your interpretation, and second regarding your application. I could have said gold, wood, stone. I'm well aware of this interpretation of Exodus 32.
Ok sorry then.
jlay wrote:The text is careful to distinquish 'they' (Hebrews) and Aaron. What we do know is that they had yet to receive the 2nd commandment, since Moses was still on the mountain.
Exo 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them...
jlay wrote:We do know that Aaron appears to act the way you state. (Exodus 32:5) Why would they (the people) say, "make us gods" plural?

That is a good question and I have nothing current on the hebrew of that text but I do know that There are places where the word God is used for a word in ancient hebrew and gods with the same word. So this requires a hebrew check on my end cause I just don't know the facts.
jlay wrote:They had just left a pagan nation with many 'gods.'
I absolutely agree that they did... The same hebrews who called Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob their lineage did leave the pagan Egyption nation who had enslaved them.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exo 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Exo 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Exo 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
Exo 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exo 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.
jlay wrote:God's personal rebuke was, "They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.
Aaron didn't say that. Aaron is the only one noted as attributing this to the one true God. That is all the text contains. Unless you have more to offer, your analysis fails. even Moses said to God, "They have made themselves gods of gold." He could have cleared it up and said something like, 'They made an image to represent you.' No, that is not remotely in the context of chapter 32. However, it's a moot point, because my criticism doesn't hang on this account. My criticism is to those who do make up in their mind a God to suit themselves. And, my point is that it is no less a sin than some pagan forming a physical idol. So, for them to say, "too me" (relying on their opinion) is idolatry. Not sure why in the past and now you are so bent on arguing this point.
I'm seeking to understand other point of views and rationales. If don't wish for me discuss a point with you that is fine I can avoid reply to your posts. sorry to be a bother.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by jlay »

Stone,

What is "The nature" ?

You must be using some new definiation of nature. Because, 'nature' is the universe.

Again, how did you arrive at these conclusions? Evidence?
KBCid wrote:However,..... to me, God is everything I am looking for.
So are you saying this is the approach that we should apply to Stone's posts?
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Re: God - Who, What, Where, When, Why

Post by Stone »

jlay wrote:
I'd like to know how your 'experience' led you to these conclusions. Whether one shapes a god out of gold, or shapes one in their mind, it is still idolatry. When a person says, "Too me, God is......." they are committing the oldest sin in the book. They are shaping a god in their own mind, which of course is no God at all. The great philosophical minds of antiquity postulated that a supreme being would have certain traits. Natural theology is about 2,400 years old, and has demonstrated most of what you present to be false.
[/quote]

The conclusions I posted based on:
1. from science:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KhGBh_PaI
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXSx4xzrbtI
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_smn8MA15h0
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gPF6qrTnPc
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXP1qMnsyQ
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFSx_S8vGfM
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmOX0ZvC4Y
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAz0aLj0SbI
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XZcDRCHNPg
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQK3U0MZe0
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT0zsQc0e-Q
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k5HoYIFo78
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5JKle6SQiI
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBl6sK56OMs
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylt1CJHFps0
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5IawJ9yXR8
(from NASA: http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 0301d.html; . . . .)

2. From my observation to tiny insects and things like that; to plants in my garden . . .

3. My knowledge of chemistry

4.From about 20 things happen to me as :
-I heard voice of not real body and the things happened after that exactly as the voice talked to me.
-I saw light from head of Joseph statue in my house (about 1 minute)
-. . .
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