Ivellious wrote:
Well, FL is saying exactly what I just said, and apparently has quotes to prove it. I certainly know not all Christians feel that way, but FL says it is fact. And also, to be honest, I think it would be equally sick if God forgave Hitler. I mean, it would be pretty sad to see Gandhi burning eternally in Hell while Hitler lived an eternity of joy and happiness...I mean, for that to even be a possibility is so wrong.
Why do you think that God forgiving Hitler sick or Gandhi burning in hell is unacceptable. While the former was a madman, the latter was almost a saint as far as actions are concerned but regardless of what those people did, you can not out-weigh grace by works. That is the point of which I think you have, IMHO, a superficial understanding, Ivel. No offense but it shows. The gospel is not about what you did, but about what Christ did. You are seeing it the other way around through some sort of karma that is working behind the scene, well that ain't the gospel and it certainly isn't Christianity either.
As far as sin is concerned, your daily lies (just for sake of example), my adulterous routine, Hitler's bloodthirsty war, Gandhi's unbelief are all equal. One sin is as punishable as is the other, although we can logically argue that such is not the case in human courts but in christian doctrine, all sin is sin and ultimately, however innocent it may seem, leads to only one outcome, death. Why? because God is perfect, and in such his standards are perfect too. No man, you, me and the pope included, can follow it 100%. That is why the lie is as unacceptable as rape. That is the whole point of Christ's coming down to earth and dying like a sinner. Because he being perfect can die in your place, and he did die in your place, for your sins and mine.
No true christian is saved by his works, as no Hitler is condemned just because he is a mass-killer, if you do not believe in Christ, you are not atoned. If you re not atoned, no matter how good you are, you sin, as all human beings do, so even if you are good, in god's eyes it is not complete. This is the prime difference between grace and the law. You are going through it like an accountant but you have to see it through grace. Grace in Christ's message means one thing, you are not being treated according to your works. Therefore, a christian who is arrogant is as much of a sinner as an atheist who murdered his neighbor. And therefore both can be saved though grace, which is obtained by Christ work on the Cross.
The question about Hitler and Gandhi, will they be saved? is irrelevant, not because they are good or bad people, but because they have not been atoned. Their sins are on them.
Personally, and I would concur with you that a man like Hitler should never be granted mercy, but in front of God, if I hate my brother, I am as guilty as Hitler. You have to understand divine justice, and how it operates. One sin is equal to death so is ten million sins. It is like, if a man murders 14 people you can only hang him once, right? what if he kills in prison too, a fellow inmate, can you hang him twice? No he will die once, no matter how many sins he did. To some extent, the same is the case here. If you sin, you sin, whether you sin 100 times or 1 million times, its irrelevant. we die spiritually because of sin.
Therefore when Christ came, he sat down with drunkards, tax collectors, corrupt officials, prostitutes and so on and so forth. For people thought, just like you, they were rating sin. Their daily small lies were, in their eyes much less than the prostitutes vulgarity, which she practices day and night. So in their own eyes they were more good than others. But Christ gave the alternate message, its not about how good you are. its about what you lack, and we all lack, therefore we can not fulfill the righteous standard of God and therefore no matter how good or bad we are, we fall short of the mark, including you and me.
Where is justice then? you ask. Justice is done not on your works, but on Christ's. For if God judges us on our own merit, we all will be condemned, everyone, holy Christians and Jews included. And so on the bright side, to be saved all you need to come to Christ and accept him as your savior.
And God is not unjust, he may not judge by our standards but then if we accept the idea of God being the ultimate authority, then he cant be contested, can he now? But by unjust I mean, first, as Dan clarified, children who die without knowing Christ are not condemned.
This is just a in-a-nutshell explanation. I hope you understand what I am saying. I needed to point out your misunderstanding since it will now help you better understand of how Christ views, sin, justice and therefore grace, which is for all of us and by that alone we are saved. If we come to Christ with our sins, we can be absolved of the penalty there of, if we believe in him, as our savior and lord.
P.S this is for the rest of the Christian members here, i have posted to clarify Ivel, what he did not seem to know. I do not want my message now to turn into a Calvinism vs Arminianism debate, about how we are saved, and who is saved etc, that is not my intention here and neither will I dive into it.
