My understanding of free will is that we are free to choose doing right and wrong.
My understanding of God's "all knowingness" is that God is knows all he CHOOSES to know at any given time AND that God can know all POSSIBLE outcomes from a decision ( even though we haven't made the choice yet, God knows what will happen regardless of the choice).
Free will
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PaulSacramento
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Philip
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Re: Free will
Clearly, a totally GOOD God could not have made any evil creature. God cannot cause sin, but he can direct, divert and influence those who are already determined to sin, and as they begin to actualize their intentions. In other words, God can direct sinful intentions and actions to a conclusion which suits His purposes. But let us make clear, the origin and intention to sin was already present and willed by the sinner. But God can and did give free will that could be exercised in either obedience or disobedience. He told Adam that he had many choices of trees in the garden, of whose fruit he was free to eat. But He also told him that of one such choice/tree, he was forbidden to eat its fruit. Interestingly, it wasn't giving Adam the choice to choose sin that was bad, but instead it was ADAM'S choice to sin.
Free will is a mystery. Ever notice how the higher one is educated, the more attractive they are, and especially when they are ALSO well-to-do or rich, the much less likely they are to be a Christian? It makes sense - as they have so much that attracts the world, and as they have no physical or temporal needs or desires that aren't already theirs in abundance, then they typically have a much lesser awareness (if any at all) of their desperate need for God in their lives. Note also that it is God who puts people into specific times, places and birth families. If he has placed someone so as that they are born physically beautiful and into an immensely wealthy family of mostly atheists/agnostics, what does that say about the probability that they are not going to become a Christian? Yes, they have the very same opportunity to do so (if THEY seek Him), but the odds of them being raised to love God - or of even being exposed to Him - are FAR less probable than of most born into families of poor to modest means. The rich's sense of needing God (while growing up) will be MUCH less. So is how God places people into families a type of determinism?
Why does scripture say that it is very difficult for a rich man to gain heaven? Why the differentiation in commenting upon probabilities based upon one's economic background? Yet, clearly, as we see in Romans 1, the basics of what can be known about God are clear to ALL men, but that most suppress them. So, whether rich or not, whether born into a nation where the Gospel is abundantly preached - or not - ALL men FREELY make their individual choices, and ALL men have a chance to know and embrace God - or not.
I believe it is because God ALREADY/BEFORE TIME knew precisely which men would be WILLING to respond to His initiating, wooing and efforts, exactly as He desired, and thus He distributes people into families, circumstances, places, and times based upon what He always knew they would FREELY choose (in regards to embracing or rejecting Him), and according to the end results of His comprehensive plan. Does not this not make more sense? As Jesus says that ALL things are possible with God, and for ALL those SO WILLING to love Him BACK.
Free will is a mystery. Ever notice how the higher one is educated, the more attractive they are, and especially when they are ALSO well-to-do or rich, the much less likely they are to be a Christian? It makes sense - as they have so much that attracts the world, and as they have no physical or temporal needs or desires that aren't already theirs in abundance, then they typically have a much lesser awareness (if any at all) of their desperate need for God in their lives. Note also that it is God who puts people into specific times, places and birth families. If he has placed someone so as that they are born physically beautiful and into an immensely wealthy family of mostly atheists/agnostics, what does that say about the probability that they are not going to become a Christian? Yes, they have the very same opportunity to do so (if THEY seek Him), but the odds of them being raised to love God - or of even being exposed to Him - are FAR less probable than of most born into families of poor to modest means. The rich's sense of needing God (while growing up) will be MUCH less. So is how God places people into families a type of determinism?
Why does scripture say that it is very difficult for a rich man to gain heaven? Why the differentiation in commenting upon probabilities based upon one's economic background? Yet, clearly, as we see in Romans 1, the basics of what can be known about God are clear to ALL men, but that most suppress them. So, whether rich or not, whether born into a nation where the Gospel is abundantly preached - or not - ALL men FREELY make their individual choices, and ALL men have a chance to know and embrace God - or not.
I believe it is because God ALREADY/BEFORE TIME knew precisely which men would be WILLING to respond to His initiating, wooing and efforts, exactly as He desired, and thus He distributes people into families, circumstances, places, and times based upon what He always knew they would FREELY choose (in regards to embracing or rejecting Him), and according to the end results of His comprehensive plan. Does not this not make more sense? As Jesus says that ALL things are possible with God, and for ALL those SO WILLING to love Him BACK.
Last edited by Philip on Thu May 31, 2012 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Free will
Some hold to the view that God already knew which people would respond to Him, William Lane Craig is an example.
Of course this does indeed bring forth questions of its own:
If God knew that, then why be so cruel as to allow their birth so that they will suffer so horribly after?
Personally I don't think we need to have that sort of "divine gymnastics" in regards to God's "foreknowing" of those that would choose Christ.
I think people that believe that some are "born damned" require such things, but not those that believe that all are born with the same potential to KNOW God and that SOME are born elected to a special service to God, above and beyond the norm.
Of course this does indeed bring forth questions of its own:
If God knew that, then why be so cruel as to allow their birth so that they will suffer so horribly after?
Personally I don't think we need to have that sort of "divine gymnastics" in regards to God's "foreknowing" of those that would choose Christ.
I think people that believe that some are "born damned" require such things, but not those that believe that all are born with the same potential to KNOW God and that SOME are born elected to a special service to God, above and beyond the norm.
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1over137
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Re: Free will
Because He gave us freedom to reproduce? He created life, life that can reproduce, life with free will. Why He allows horrible suffering for eternity? First, why for eternity? Because He does not want to destroy the life. He values it much. Why horrible, why not only slight? Well, does slight suffering exist? Suffering is suffering and it is horrible. And why suffering? Because He is just. He gave us laws. He is the origin of justice. And justice introduces punishment for breaking the laws. Why He created life with free will? What is life without free will? Is such life capable of loving God? Is plant capable of loving God? Just thinking ...PaulSacramento wrote:Some hold to the view that God already knew which people would respond to Him, William Lane Craig is an example.
Of course this does indeed bring forth questions of its own:
If God knew that, then why be so cruel as to allow their birth so that they will suffer so horribly after?
.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Free will
Yes, there should be punishments for the breaking of the law, BUT if one is "predestined" to break them, is it even "free will" ?1over137 wrote:Because He gave us freedom to reproduce? He created life, life that can reproduce, life with free will. Why He allows horrible suffering for eternity? First, why for eternity? Because He does not want to destroy the life. He values it much. Why horrible, why not only slight? Well, does slight suffering exist? Suffering is suffering and it is horrible. And why suffering? Because He is just. He gave us laws. He is the origin of justice. And justice introduces punishment for breaking the laws. Why He created life with free will? What is life without free will? Is such life capable of loving God? Is plant capable of loving God? Just thinking ...PaulSacramento wrote:Some hold to the view that God already knew which people would respond to Him, William Lane Craig is an example.
Of course this does indeed bring forth questions of its own:
If God knew that, then why be so cruel as to allow their birth so that they will suffer so horribly after?
.
Where is the justice in God condemning a person that was born to be condemned?
Predestined by God to do wrong and then condemned for doing what God had destined him to do before he was even born?
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Philip
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Re: Free will
Delete / Duplicate: don't know why this happens?
Last edited by Philip on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Philip
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Re: Free will
That's a great question: Why would God punish finite sins for an ETERNITY? Very likely because their rejection and rebellion of him CONTINUES into eternity. Notice the parable of Abraham's Bosom and the rich man in hell: Notice that the rich man, even finding himself in the misery of hell, is STILL not sorry or repentant for the sins of his past life. Nor does he cry out for God to forgive him. He also doesn't protest that his punishment is unfair or that if just given one more chance he'd do all God had asked of him. No, the rich man's unrepentance was eternal, and his heart and mind were determined to NEVER obey God or to repent, which is the very same mindset of all of his fellow sufferers also in hell. God KNEW that their rebellion would never change, and thus the length of their punishment matches the length of their ongoing sin - which is FOREVER!"First, why for eternity?"
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1over137
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Re: Free will
Is knowing that someone will break the law the same as being predestined to break the law? Freedictionary tells me that to predestine is to decide in advance. Did God decide in advance who is going to end up in hell? I look at it this way: God gave us free will and free will is capable of opposing God. Again, why he created free will? Because He would be bored to stare at plants and animals only, He wanted something more. Yes, He knew that some will oppose Him. Couldn't God create the world in a way that there would be free will and noone would oppose Him? No He couldn't. Does this mean that He is not omnipotent? Well, must an omnipotent being be capable of doing two contradictive things?PaulSacramento wrote: Yes, there should be punishments for the breaking of the law, BUT if one is "predestined" to break them, is it even "free will" ? Where is the justice in God condemning a person that was born to be condemned? Predestined by God to do wrong and then condemned for doing what God had destined him to do before he was even born?
Do you still have the feeling that God is unfair? Remember, God shows Himself to everybody in this life. And when someone spits on Him, does He deserve to be with Him in heaven?
Thank you for your input Philip. I learned from it.Philip wrote: That's a great question: Why would God punish finite sins for an ETERNITY? Very likely because their rejection and rebellion of him CONTINUES into eternity
Huh, the questions I've been always wondering about am starting to answer myself to myself.
Guys, if I say something which is not in accordance with Bible, immediately stop me.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Free will
Omnipotent and omnicient have to be defined and agreed upon BEFORE one can start debating whether God is or isn't and that's been debated for centuries!Is knowing that someone will break the law the same as being predestined to break the law? Freedictionary tells me that to predestine is to decide in advance. Did God decide in advance who is going to end up in hell? I look at it this way: God gave us free will and free will is capable of opposing God. Again, why he created free will? Because He would be bored to stare at plants and animals only, He wanted something more. Yes, He knew that some will oppose Him. Couldn't God create the world in a way that there would be free will and noone would oppose Him? No He couldn't. Does this mean that He is not omnipotent? Well, must an omnipotent being be capable of doing two contradictive things?
If God does predestine some people for "damnation" then He is a cruel and unjust God, that is simply my view and there is no logical way around that.
It is inconsistent, in my view, with the God we see described in the Bible, in particular the NT.
I don't subsrcibe to the view that God predestines ANYONE to damnation to no, I do NOT think God is unfair or unjust.Do you still have the feeling that God is unfair? Remember, God shows Himself to everybody in this life. And when someone spits on Him, does He deserve to be with Him in heaven?
For us to have a choice to accept God and to Love God, we must have that CHOICE and if one is predestined to "spite God" BY God, then what choice did this person have actually? because it doesn't sound like He had any choice at all.
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1over137
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Re: Free will
My apologies.PaulSacramento wrote: I don't subsrcibe to the view that God predestines ANYONE to damnation to no, I do NOT think God is unfair or unjust.
So, what about those that finally end in hell? Did He know they would end in hell or not?PaulSacramento wrote: My understanding of God's "all knowingness" is that God is knows all he CHOOSES to know at any given time AND that God can know all POSSIBLE outcomes from a decision ( even though we haven't made the choice yet, God knows what will happen regardless of the choice).
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Free will
No need to apologize my friend, I just wanted to make it clear that I do not view God as unfair or unjust1over137 wrote:My apologies.PaulSacramento wrote: I don't subsrcibe to the view that God predestines ANYONE to damnation to no, I do NOT think God is unfair or unjust.
So, what about those that finally end in hell? Did He know they would end in hell or not?PaulSacramento wrote: My understanding of God's "all knowingness" is that God is knows all he CHOOSES to know at any given time AND that God can know all POSSIBLE outcomes from a decision ( even though we haven't made the choice yet, God knows what will happen regardless of the choice).
Yes, God knows those that have the potential to end up in hell ( if I can use those words), God is aware of all our choices and the consequences of them and also KNOWS us and what our inclinations are.
God's omniscience is based on what God CHOOSES to know at any given time, much like God's omnipotence is based on what God CAN do that is within his nature to do ( God can't lie or be unjust or kill for no reason).
So God knows those that re potentially lost and God does what He can to help them to choose WITHOUT forcing them to choose.
God gives them the same oportunities He gives us to "find Him", perhaps even more so since they certainly need more help.
BUT in the end it is up to them, it MUST be up to them or else, "free will" and the ability, the possibility even, to choose doesn't exist.
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BryanH
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Re: Free will
I will present 3 things that argue against free will IF you believe in GOD as described by the bible:
1) GOD can send you to hell for your own PERSONAL BELIEFS which come out of exercising FREE WILL. If I choose not to believe in God and the resurrected Jesus Christ that means I will end up in Hell. Therefore FREE WILL is not in place.
2) Giving people 10 commandments to follow and punish them if they did not obey is against FREE WILL.
3) GOD sent Jesus Christ to redeem our sins. That is an act against FREE WILL. People chose to be sinful and not obey GOD's commands. Sending Jesus to clear out the mess is again an act against free will. But anyways this is just an example that related to the first argument I made.
1) GOD can send you to hell for your own PERSONAL BELIEFS which come out of exercising FREE WILL. If I choose not to believe in God and the resurrected Jesus Christ that means I will end up in Hell. Therefore FREE WILL is not in place.
2) Giving people 10 commandments to follow and punish them if they did not obey is against FREE WILL.
3) GOD sent Jesus Christ to redeem our sins. That is an act against FREE WILL. People chose to be sinful and not obey GOD's commands. Sending Jesus to clear out the mess is again an act against free will. But anyways this is just an example that related to the first argument I made.
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neo-x
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Re: Free will
Nooooo...if you have free will, you are the one that chose not to go to God....so that is exactly free will, if God hadn't really made free will, he would have dragged you to his kingdom, no matter how you resisted. You said it in bold letters, man. You chose. You want to go against God and then not accpet the consequences as well. That is like saying I don't believe in God but I want to go to heaven...Duh! Why?1) GOD can send you to hell for your own PERSONAL BELIEFS which come out of exercising FREE WILL. If I choose not to believe in God and the resurrected Jesus Christ that means I will end up in Hell. Therefore FREE WILL is not in place.
Do you think you have a free will in your country even if they have laws? If you steal, that is your free will, does that make you above the law of your country? Just because it is your free will. Your law is against stealing if you steal with you free will, should you not be held accountable? This is so ridiculous that I don't know whether to laugh or be sad at the absurdity of your statement. This was just a bad argument, Bryan, really bad one.2) Giving people 10 commandments to follow and punish them if they did not obey is against FREE WILL.
That is pure love Bryan, you wanna stay dirty while someone clears up your mess. This is not against your will at all, since you would have to come to Christ for that redemption to be whole and complete. The choice is yours and yours alone, your FREE WILL.3) GOD sent Jesus Christ to redeem our sins. That is an act against FREE WILL. People chose to be sinful and not obey GOD's commands. Sending Jesus to clear out the mess is again an act against free will. But anyways this is just an example that related to the first argument I made.
From your statements, I would seriously ask you to study Christianity, you seem so misinformed.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
Re: Free will
And while you're at it Bryan, why don't you define for us what free will is on a purely deterministic viewpoint.neo-x wrote:From your statements, I would seriously ask you to study Christianity, you seem so misinformed.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Free will
Free will is being free to exercise your "will" to do or do NOT something.
Free will is irrespective of the outcome of whatever decision we make.
The only time we do NOT have free will is if we do NOT have ANY choice to make, even predetermined choices ( one can only choose from the available options) is still free will ( albeit limited free will).
As long as a person can choose, there is free will.
The consequences of the choice do NOT define whether a person is free to make them ( though they will influence the decision of course).
Free will is irrespective of the outcome of whatever decision we make.
The only time we do NOT have free will is if we do NOT have ANY choice to make, even predetermined choices ( one can only choose from the available options) is still free will ( albeit limited free will).
As long as a person can choose, there is free will.
The consequences of the choice do NOT define whether a person is free to make them ( though they will influence the decision of course).