Loved Ones and Heaven

[BavarianWheels]

In short, according to PaulSacramento, it is better to leave people in ignorance of Christ in order that HOPEFULLY they can be saved apart from belief in Christ/God.

That, of course, is another gospel.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

These are Christ's words...but lets HOPE they are not true.
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I'm sorry, I really can't make it any more clear what I feel.
Of course you are free to disagree with me in my hope that God takes into account that Man has caused many to stumble in "God's name".
I hope you are wrong of course.

I have derailed this thread long enough and for that, I apologize to the thread starter.

Likewise I hope God takes into account that HE created Lucifer...maybe then HE will hopefully just save every single person born since Adam and Eve were created and forego belief in sending HIS SON to die unnecessarily for us...
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[RickD]

In short, according to PaulSacramento, it is better to leave people in ignorance of Christ in order that HOPEFULLY they can be saved apart from belief in Christ/God.

That, of course, is another gospel.
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Bav,
I don't think that is what Paul is saying. Paul is part of a JW recovery site, and deals with people who have a distorted view of Jesus Christ, because of the false Christ of JW theology. Don't you think Paul would be trying to help ex-JWs know the real Jesus Christ?

[BavarianWheels]

In short, according to PaulSacramento, it is better to leave people in ignorance of Christ in order that HOPEFULLY they can be saved apart from belief in Christ/God.

That, of course, is another gospel.
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Bav,
I don't think that is what Paul is saying. Paul is part of a JW recovery site, and deals with people who have a distorted view of Jesus Christ, because of the false Christ of JW theology. Don't you think Paul would be trying to help ex-JWs know the real Jesus Christ?

What PaulSacramento is saying is that he hopes for salvation apart from belief in Christ/God...in straight talk that is ANOTHER gospel. I don't have an issue calling a spade a spade.
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[RickD]

BavarianWheels wrote:

What PaulSacramento is saying is that he hopes for salvation apart from belief in Christ/God...in straight talk that is ANOTHER gospel. I don't have an issue calling a spade a spade.

Bav, I think it's pretty clear, that's not what Paul is saying. Especially from what he said here:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Very true and luckily no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation COMES from Him.
There is only salvation in Christ and it is only in HIS name that we are saved.
No one is denying that at all.
No one is also saying that THEY are speaking for Christ or that they KNOW WHO Christ will save and who he will condem, are they?
I certainly hope that no one here is saying they KNOW WHO Christ will choose.
What I am saying is that I HOPE that Christ, who knows what is in our hearts, will judge those that have NOT been able to know him truly, with his love, the love for us that Christ die for us all.
I most certainly will say that "THAT person will not be saved" or "That person will", can you say that?
As Our Lord said, Many will call him "lord, Lord" and He will not know them.
It goes to thinking that many will be there that we MAY not have thought to see there.

[PaulSacramento]

I really didn't want to continue this but fine.
There is ONE LORD and ONE salvation and that IS Jesus Christ.
But I also know that no everyone has had or will have access to the Lord's Gospel, so:
I believe that those that put their faith in the Lord will be saved : John 5:
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And what happens to those that for NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ?
John 5:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I hope that at least NOW my view are clear, though I don't expect ALL to agree with them.

[PaulSacramento]

Those that DO come to KNOW God and Christ AND reject them, those will have "their will done" and have the "life after death" that they choose.

[BavarianWheels]

BavarianWheels wrote:

What PaulSacramento is saying is that he hopes for salvation apart from belief in Christ/God...in straight talk that is ANOTHER gospel. I don't have an issue calling a spade a spade.

Bav, I think it's pretty clear, that's not what Paul is saying. Especially from what he said here:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Very true and luckily no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation COMES from Him.
There is only salvation in Christ and it is only in HIS name that we are saved.
No one is denying that at all.
No one is also saying that THEY are speaking for Christ or that they KNOW WHO Christ will save and who he will condem, are they?
I certainly hope that no one here is saying they KNOW WHO Christ will choose.
What I am saying is that I HOPE that Christ, who knows what is in our hearts, will judge those that have NOT been able to know him truly, with his love, the love for us that Christ die for us all.
I most certainly will say that "THAT person will not be saved" or "That person will", can you say that?
As Our Lord said, Many will call him "lord, Lord" and He will not know them.
It goes to thinking that many will be there that we MAY not have thought to see there.

To infuse this thinking that some may be saved apart from Christ is antichrist. Plain and simple. We all wish that the "good" people we know will be saved, but according to God's word, it is not the good that will be saved, but the faithful. This we know.

PaulSacramento's "HOPE" is hope against God's given Word and a slap in the face of a crucified Christ...that His death is of relative importance. I cannot and will not support such antichrist-infused-thinking especially more so from one that may be putting forth this idea from a position of authority/knowledge...almost bach. degree in theology.

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

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[PaulSacramento]

I really didn't want to continue this but fine.
There is ONE LORD and ONE salvation and that IS Jesus Christ.
But I also know that no everyone has had or will have access to the Lord's Gospel, so:
I believe that those that put their faith in the Lord will be saved : John 5:
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And what happens to those that for NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ?
John 5:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I hope that at least NOW my view are clear, though I don't expect ALL to agree with them.

I guess this post was somehow missed...

[RickD]

So Bav, are you saying that according to your interpretation of scripture, everybody in the entire history of the earth who hasn't heard about Jesus Christ, is destined for eternity in hell? Can you say that with 100% security? I just know that anyone who denies Christ, is going to get his wish of being without God for eternity. But, do I think there's a possibility that those who never denied Christ, because they never had the opportunity to deny Him, may have Jesus reveal Himself to them? I'm not sure, but as long as I thing there's a possibility, then I think the argument of "God damns people to hell, even if they have never denied Christ", is futile. I just don't know, that the God I know, who wants none to be lost, would put every person in hell, that was never presented with a chance to accept or reject Christ.

[BavarianWheels]

I really didn't want to continue this but fine.
There is ONE LORD and ONE salvation and that IS Jesus Christ.
But I also know that no everyone has had or will have access to the Lord's Gospel, so:
I believe that those that put their faith in the Lord will be saved : John 5:
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And what happens to those that for NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ?
John 5:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I hope that at least NOW my view are clear, though I don't expect ALL to agree with them.

I guess this post was somehow missed...

I suppose then your "almost" bach. degree in theology has yet to discuss ( or somehow missed ) these words and others like them and their implication(s);

"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

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[BavarianWheels]

So Bav, are you saying that according to your interpretation of scripture, everybody in the entire history of the earth who hasn't heard about Jesus Christ, is destined for eternity in hell? Can you say that with 100% security? I just know that anyone who denies Christ, is going to get his wish of being without God for eternity. But, do I think there's a possibility that those who never denied Christ, because they never had the opportunity to deny Him, may have Jesus reveal Himself to them? I'm not sure, but as long as I thing there's a possibility, then I think the argument of "God damns people to hell, even if they have never denied Christ", is futile. I just don't know, that the God I know, who wants none to be lost, would put every person in hell, that was never presented with a chance to accept or reject Christ.

I can only promote that which God's Word tells us.

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Apart from that, it is promoting myths and what itching ears what to hear.
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[PaulSacramento]

I really didn't want to continue this but fine.
There is ONE LORD and ONE salvation and that IS Jesus Christ.
But I also know that no everyone has had or will have access to the Lord's Gospel, so:
I believe that those that put their faith in the Lord will be saved : John 5:
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And what happens to those that for NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ?
John 5:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I hope that at least NOW my view are clear, though I don't expect ALL to agree with them.

I guess this post was somehow missed...

I suppose then your "almost" bach. degree in theology has yet to discuss ( or somehow missed ) these words and others like them and their implication(s);

"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

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Yep, it was before this one:
1Peter4:
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been [e]preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

and after this one:
"I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you." Heb. 13:5

And yes we debate and discuss these things in my Theology class because they have been debated and discussed for centuries.
And yes, 1 more semester and I will have my Bach.

[PaulSacramento]

Funny that you quoted a letter to Timothy:
1Timothy4:
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[PaulSacramento]

I know that we seem to be going back and forth on these two views bu the reality is there are more than just these two:
-Agnostic: We have conflicting and/or inadequate information in the Bible and cannot reach a definitive belief about salvation.
-Inclusivism: Non-Christian believers will avoid Hell if they worship a deity of some sort, because God works through all of the world's religious faiths. Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, etc. who do not believe in a God will go to Hell.
-Middle Knowledge: God, having infinite wisdom, knows who would have rejected the gospel if it had been presented to them. As a result, they never have had the opportunity to accept the Gospel. Those people will be transported to Hell when they die.
-Post Mortem Evangelism: those who have never heard the gospel will be exposed to it after death and thus given the opportunity to get to Heaven. This is sometimes called Divine Perseverance.
-Unitive Pluralism: All of the world's great religions offer salvation to their members in different ways. A knowledge and acceptance of Jesus, and the sacrifice of Jesus are not needed for a person to be saved. 4
-Universal Opportunity: All those who were not saved during their lifetimes will be given a vision of the Gospel at the time of death, and will be able to accept salvation at that time.
-Universalism: All will eventually be accepted into Heaven by some process after death.

[BavarianWheels]

Funny that you quoted a letter to Timothy:
1Timothy4:
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Which in context simply means that a non-believer today can be a believer tomorrow... and that Christ's death is able to save all men...

but again it's your itching ears promoting myths.
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