Loved Ones and Heaven

[PaulSacramento]

Context?
Apostasy

4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

A Good Minister’s Discipline

6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 7 But [c]have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

11 [d] Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example [e]of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the [f] presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will [g] ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

While the context does mention those that belief and may fall victim to improper teachings ( no marriage and food restictions) when it comes to the statement that the living God is saviour of ALL, ESPECIALLY if believers, the context is clear that God is the saviour of believers (especially) and all men ( potentially).
IN other words, ALL will have the chance to be saved by God, believers especially of course ( go back to John 5 for Christ's words on the benefits of beinga believer VS the non-believer).
Much better to believe in Christ.

[PaulSacramento]

I wanted to make it clear that when I mentioned me being in the progress of getting my Bach. in Theology the point was to show that these views are nothing new nor are they even solely mine, but have been debated (as I learned) through out the history of the church.
We have debated and discussed them quite a bit ( and other too of course-many that have been debated her as well).
The Christian religion is a robust and living faith, one that is filled with passion, life and fire.
Heck, you guys should have seen the heated debate about the "holiness of the church", it would have made Augustine and the Donatists/Pelagians proud !

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
So Bav, are you saying that according to your interpretation of scripture, everybody in the entire history of the earth who hasn't heard about Jesus Christ, is destined for eternity in hell? Can you say that with 100% security? I just know that anyone who denies Christ, is going to get his wish of being without God for eternity. But, do I think there's a possibility that those who never denied Christ, because they never had the opportunity to deny Him, may have Jesus reveal Himself to them? I'm not sure, but as long as I thing there's a possibility, then I think the argument of "God damns people to hell, even if they have never denied Christ", is futile. I just don't know, that the God I know, who wants none to be lost, would put every person in hell, that was never presented with a chance to accept or reject Christ.


I can only promote that which God's Word tells us.

Bav, thanks for the non-answer. I'll try this question then. Haven't you ever wondered what happens to all the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, or have never heard the gospel? Or, perhaps you hold to a belief similar to 5pt Calvinism, in which only those that God chooses, are saved?

[BavarianWheels]

RickD wrote:
So Bav, are you saying that according to your interpretation of scripture, everybody in the entire history of the earth who hasn't heard about Jesus Christ, is destined for eternity in hell? Can you say that with 100% security? I just know that anyone who denies Christ, is going to get his wish of being without God for eternity. But, do I think there's a possibility that those who never denied Christ, because they never had the opportunity to deny Him, may have Jesus reveal Himself to them? I'm not sure, but as long as I thing there's a possibility, then I think the argument of "God damns people to hell, even if they have never denied Christ", is futile. I just don't know, that the God I know, who wants none to be lost, would put every person in hell, that was never presented with a chance to accept or reject Christ.


I can only promote that which God's Word tells us.

Bav, thanks for the non-answer. I'll try this question then. Haven't you ever wondered what happens to all the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, or have never heard the gospel? Or, perhaps you hold to a belief similar to 5pt Calvinism, in which only those that God chooses, are saved?

Sure I've wondered...however it's not my place and certainly not the place of anyone promoting belief in Christ and the bible as their authority that they hold HOPE for salvation apart from Christ ( as that's what it is )...if the bible is our authority on matters of salvation, then we only have the bible and the words therein to promote as truth. To do otherwise is to promote ANOTHER gospel.

If God decided that He can present Himself to the dead and therefore it be a legal matter ( remembering that salvation is firstly legal through a loving God ) to THEN save...is for Him to do and us to shrug our shoulders at. But as a matter of NOW...it has never been nor is it an option or hope.
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[BavarianWheels]

IN other words, ALL will have the chance to be saved by God,...

I notice you insert your own idea(s) and myths and what your itching ears hope to hear...that all WILL HAVE the chance...such a complete vioation of the teachings therein. The potential is that all HAVE, not all "will have" as you promote it after death...or whatever is your thinking apart from Christ.
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[RickD]

Sure I've wondered...however it's not my place and certainly not the place of anyone promoting belief in Christ and the bible as their authority that they hold HOPE for salvation apart from Christ ( as that's what it is )...if the bible is our authority on matters of salvation, then we only have the bible and the words therein to promote as truth. To do otherwise is to promote ANOTHER gospel.

Bav, then you certainly misrepresent what PaulS is saying. Even after he tried to explain it again. He is not hoping for salvation apart from Christ.

What answer would you give someone who asked you if the people who had never heard of Christ would go to heaven or hell?

[BavarianWheels]

Sure I've wondered...however it's not my place and certainly not the place of anyone promoting belief in Christ and the bible as their authority that they hold HOPE for salvation apart from Christ ( as that's what it is )...if the bible is our authority on matters of salvation, then we only have the bible and the words therein to promote as truth. To do otherwise is to promote ANOTHER gospel.

Bav, then you certainly misrepresent what PaulS is saying. Even after he tried to explain it again. He is not hoping for salvation apart from Christ.

What answer would you give someone who asked you if the people who had never heard of Christ would go to heaven or hell?

Oh...I beg to differ. PaulSacramento hopes that there is salvation apart from belief this side of death...which is another gospel...and promotes it as his view of a "loving God". That people could be saved from their own good works...as if...only. This is not taught anywhere in the bible and is in fact "not according to the Word."

What do I say to those people? I say I don't pretend to know God's mind and cannot promote anything other than what God has set before us as truth. Our mission is to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified...nothing more.
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[RickD]

Oh...I beg to differ. PaulSacramento hopes that there is salvation apart from belief this side of death...which is another gospel...and promotes it as his view of a "loving God". That people could be saved from their own good works...as if...only. This is not taught anywhere in the bible and is in fact "not according to the Word."

What do I say to those people? I say I don't pretend to know God's mind and cannot promote anything other than what God has set before us as truth. Our mission is to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified...nothing more.

Again, I don't see it as Paul promoting anything. I see it as he's thinking out loud, so to speak. Just wondering how we can reconcile a loving God, who wants none to perish, with the fact that we just don't know what happens to people who have never had a chance to accept or reject the only means for salvation; faith in Christ.

If Paul says that he's not promoting some other way of salvation, besides Christ, then I believe him.

And I'm glad when someone asks you a question that you don't know the answer to, you can just chalk it up to the bible doesn't speak about it, so I won't worry about the answer. For some of us, not knowing an answer, leads us to think about, and try to find the answer.

[BavarianWheels]

Oh...I beg to differ. PaulSacramento hopes that there is salvation apart from belief this side of death...which is another gospel...and promotes it as his view of a "loving God". That people could be saved from their own good works...as if...only. This is not taught anywhere in the bible and is in fact "not according to the Word."

What do I say to those people? I say I don't pretend to know God's mind and cannot promote anything other than what God has set before us as truth. Our mission is to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified...nothing more.

Again, I don't see it as Paul promoting anything. I see it as he's thinking out loud, so to speak. Just wondering how we can reconcile a loving God, who wants none to perish, with the fact that we just don't know what happens to people who have never had a chance to accept or reject the only means for salvation; faith in Christ.

If Paul says that he's not promoting some other way of salvation, besides Christ, then I believe him.

And I'm glad when someone asks you a question that you don't know the answer to, you can just chalk it up to the bible doesn't speak about it, so I won't worry about the answer. For some of us, not knowing an answer, leads us to think about, and try to find the answer.

In other words...myths, traditions of men and for those with itching ears.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I really didn't want to continue this but fine.


And what happens to those that for NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ?
John 5:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I hope that at least NOW my view are clear, though I don't expect ALL to agree with them.

I'm surprised that this topic is still going on. The dead being spoken of in Jn 5:25 are those who are dead in sin, which means all of us before coming to Christ. The context makes this clear. Verses 26-27-28 & 29 speak of the judgements of the just and the damned. The only people who through ''NO FAULT of their own, do NOT put faith in Christ'' (as you put it) are the feeble-minded, babies and children dead before the age of reason. Everyone else rejects God on their own and cannot blame someone else.

FL

[RickD]

FL wrote:

Everyone else rejects God on their own and cannot blame someone else.

Then, do you believe that all those who have never heard the gospel, fall into the category of "rejecting God"?

BavarianWheels wrote:

In other words...myths, traditions of men and for those with itching ears.

Bav, you are going on the record, saying that you have never gotten into a discussion about anything other than, "Christ crucified"? Never discussed the age if the earth, observing the sabbath, etc.

[BavarianWheels]

I'm surprised that this topic is still going on.

Don't be surprised. It's not uncommon for some to trivialize Christ and him crucified...to "save face" for God...as if He needed our rationalizations for His Justice.
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[BavarianWheels]

FL wrote:

Everyone else rejects God on their own and cannot blame someone else.

Then, do you believe that all those who have never heard the gospel, fall into the category of "rejecting God"?

BavarianWheels wrote:

In other words...myths, traditions of men and for those with itching ears.

Bav, you are going on the record, saying that you have never gotten into a discussion about anything other than, "Christ crucified"? Never discussed the age if the earth, observing the sabbath, etc.

BTW...you know if you just quote text as {quote="InsertNameHere"} ( obviouly using the wrong coding for illustration ) it would be using the "proper" form of quoting...but you can change it if you like your way better. Either way you're still typing the same if not more.

I'm going on the record that I don't attempt to make God and His Justice more palatable to the unbeliever by suggesting something other than the manner in which salvation is described in scripture. Observation of Law(s) is not detrimental to salvation nor is a certain belief on the age of the earth.

God does not need His created to make up senarios just to make Him SEEM more loving to the skeptic. If we don't see His Love in His Justice, then we choose to disbelieve.
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[RickD]

BTW...you know if you just quote text as {quote="InsertNameHere"} ( obviouly using the wrong coding for illustration ) it would be using the "proper" form of quoting...but you can change it if you like your way better. Either way you're still typing the same if not more.

Not sure what you mean by this, but if it would make it easier to quote on my iPod, then I'm open to try.
As for the rest of what you said, I guess you see Paul saying one thing, and I see him saying something else. I certainly don't see him using a different gospel. I just wanted to be clear that I thought what you were disagreeing with him on, was due to a communication misunderstanding. And, you don't see it that way, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

[BavarianWheels]

BTW...you know if you just quote text as {quote="InsertNameHere"} ( obviouly using the wrong coding for illustration ) it would be using the "proper" form of quoting...but you can change it if you like your way better. Either way you're still typing the same if not more.

Not sure what you mean by this, but if it would make it easier to quote on my iPod, then I'm open to try.
As for the rest of what you said, I guess you see Paul saying one thing, and I see him saying something else. I certainly don't see him using a different gospel. I just wanted to be clear that I thought what you were disagreeing with him on, was due to a communication misunderstanding. And, you don't see it that way, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

It is a different gospel...to promote that he "hopes" there is salvation apart from Christ. He has plainly said that he hopes for salvation being afforded after death in presence of God/Christ...so then to deny or actively choose against God or even not know about God and YET have a chance for salvation is to slap the face that died in our stead.

I believe that in our fallen state, many will die NOT knowing Our beloved Lord and saviour, and many for no true fault of their own.
I can't believe that Christ and Gos who have suffered so much for us all, would not open their love to those also.
Of course, what those people then do is up to them.

Yes, I am suggesting that there may still be a chance for salvation after death, at the resurrection and final judgment.
I also believe that at the time of death we will "see" God and will know God and will have a choice.
I also admit this may be "wishful thinking", not wanting ANYONE to be lost.

I am obviously NOT a Calvinist.
I believe that Christ died for us ALL, for us ALL to have the opportunity to KNOW the TRUE God.
I can't fathom a God that condemns those that haven't had the chance to know Him or have been twisted and pushed away by what MAN has done to His Word.
I may be wrong but hope that I am not.
Where is the justice in the condeming of an ignorant man or a misguided man when God "requires mercy and not sacrifice", when God is a God of Mercy and love?
Would anyone one of us condem our Child knowing that the child has NOT know our Love?
How can God?

Just to list a few slaps to the face of Christ that died for us...not to be presented to us after death, but BEFORE we die to sin and therefore pay the penalty of sin...that PaulSacramento apparently cannot fathom either...God being so unfair and all to the skeptic.
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