Shroud of Turin

[bippy123]

Does anyone know of a scientifically credible link that details problems with C 14 testing? All that I am coming across are typically tied to young earth organizations, that believe in a literal 6 days of creation, and which supposedly took place mere THOUSANDS of years ago.

Philip I believe this will help you understand not only the many protocols violated by the c14 tests but also to the events leading to the c14 testing that got the more experienced sturp team bumped out of the picture despite the 26 point measures that would have avoided these many errors.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/marben.pdf

The link above shows the events leading to the c14 tests in which many scientists and textile experts expressed their opinions that the piece used in the c14 test was probably from a reweave, but the only way to be absolutely sure was to do a chemical analysis of both the c14 sample and a sticky tape sample from the image area.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf

this chemical analysis was finally done by Ray Rogers the world renowned Chemist from Los alamos labs (an agnostic) who was originally a critic of the shrouds authenticity in his peer reviewed research submitted to and accepted by thermochimica acta in 2005. This is on page 20 and 21 here and I believe a link to Rogers peer reviewed paper is there also.

Some of the protocols talked about that were violated is that 
1. There was only one sample cut from the shroud
2. That sample came from an area that was handled the most throughout the centuries.
3.after the sample was cut into three pieces(one for each lab)There was no chemical analysis done on those 3 pieces to see if all 3 were of the same chemical composition to each other, and there was no chemical analysis test done to make sure that the original c14 sample was the same chemically as the image area. There was also indications of dye in those areas that werent there in the image area, but again no testing .

These are just a few of the 
Many protocols violated by the c14 testing labs, that werent exposed until Ray Rogers brilliant peer reviewed work that debunked the c14 dating once and for all.

Let me also include a link to ray Rogers peer reviewed research in thermochimica act in 2005.
http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

[bippy123]

There was a video on YouTube from the spokesperson of the sturp team DR. Kenneth Stevenson which I can't find now (so frustrating) as it didn't have his name on title of the video, where he gives a great initial lecture on the injuries and the image of the man on the shroud.

DRDS he was one of the baptists that was on the sturp team and he and Gary Habermas teamed together to write a book on the shroud. I forgot the name but I heard it's a good book.

Let me know if this helps, I found this while searching on youtube for Dr. Kenneth Stevenson.

http://dingorex.xanga.com/videos/838881191558/

DRDS thanks for the link buddy but I can't view the video on my iPod touch for some reason,I'll be able to get on my pc in the morning:)

[bippy123]

Guys I was curious about some of my old research on the late Sue Benford.
She was the first one who thought that the c14 dating was on a reweave, and her and Joseph Marino together pushed Ray Rogers to do the chemical analysis on the shroud.

This article was back in 2002 (3 years before Rogers got published in thermochimica acta.
The freaky part is that she claimed that she was receiving visions from Jesus about that piece. Now there is no way to scientifically verify a vision, but is it a coincidence that her their was proven correct 3 years later?

http://www.rense.com/general28/breaktr.htm
Breakthrough Effort
Authenticate The Shroud
By Randy Boswell
The Ottawa Citizen and Citizen News Services
8-30-2

The Ohio woman who appears to have discovered a critical flaw in the 1988 carbon dating of cloth samples from the Shroud of Turin says her insights into the controversial Christian relic were communicated to her by Jesus Christ himself.
 
Sue Benford, who co-authored a research paper in 2000 with her partner Joseph Marino, a respected shroud scholar, told the Citizen yesterday she's "excited" that their findings could help refute the 1988 tests that have led most experts to conclude the shroud was a medieval forgery and not the burial cloth of Christ.  
 
Roman Catholic officials in Italy have confirmed that new experiments are being performed by a Swiss textile expert, apparently to test the Benford-Marino theory: that the cloth sample chosen in 1988 - and which yielded a date of origin between 1260 and 1390 A.D - was actually a blend of original material almost 2,000 years old and newer threads woven into the shroud as recently as 400 years ago to repair damaged or pilfered portions of the sacred object.   Ms. Benford, a former nurse who now runs a nonprofit educational organization near Columbus, said it was a "divine revelation" in March 1997 - followed by months of arduous research with Mr. Marino - that produced their theory that the 1988 study was fundamentally flawed.  
 
"I was working at my computer when a voice told me to go watch TV," said Ms. Benford, 45, who began flipping channels until she happened upon a show about the Shroud of Turin.   "I was just stunned," she said, because she instantly recognized that the face on the shroud belonged to the same man whose voice had instructed her to watch television, and which later explained to her why scientists had mistakenly concluded the shroud was a fake.   "I don't want to sound like a nut case, but that's what happened," she said. "I was given the answer."  
 
The couple's theory was presented at a conference in Italy in August 2000, around the same time the Vatican announced there would be no further testing on the age of the shroud in the immediate future.   But members of the official Committee for the Conservation of the Holy Shroud have disclosed to the Italian newspaper Il Messaggero that testing has begun again.  
 
They said that the cloth's backing and about 30 triangular patches used to mend the shroud in the 16th century after it was damaged by fire have been removed in a "secret experiment." They added that the committee as a whole has not been consulted and instead the testing has been authorized by a small number of church "insiders."   Officials in Turin also confirmed that the shroud has been removed from its case and would not be on display while the experiment was in progress. They said the operation is being conducted by Swiss textile expert Mechtild Flury-Lemberg.  
 
As startling as Ms. Benford's story might seem, the central argument she and Mr. Marino have advanced has also been embraced by a prominent U.S. scientist who first studied the shroud in 1978 and still possesses samples of the cloth.   Ray Rogers was part of an international team 20 years ago that performed a chemical analysis of shroud fibres and determined that the image on the cloth was not painted.  
 
That finding ruled out an obvious hoax and left open the possibility that the shroud was authentic. But most of the scientific community - including Mr. Rogers himself - were later convinced by the 1988 carbon dating that the cloth was a fake after all.  
 
Mr. Rogers, a retired chemist living in Los Alamos, New Mexico, told the Citizen yesterday that he dismisses Ms. Benford's story about speaking with Jesus.   But the observation itself - that old and new fibres had been mistakenly mixed in the 1988 experiments - is valid, he says.  
 
"When I first saw Benford and Marino's study, I said they're full of it," recalls Mr. Rogers, who re-analysed his shroud threads based on the Ohio couple's hypothesis. "But I have to agree with what they're proposing. The 1988 radio-carbon analysis was probably the very best ever done, but it was done on the worst, most stupidly selected sample of cloth."  
 
The 1988 sample, explains Mr. Rogers, comes from the lower left corner of the shroud which, it appears, has been "cleverly rewoven" over the centuries to disguise the fact that cuttings have been taken from the outer edge of the cloth from time to time.  
 
But several threads studied by Mr. Rogers in 1978 came from a section of the shroud slightly closer to the famous image of a crucified man that appears in the middle of the cloth. Some of those threads had been expertly "spliced" to connect older and newer fibres.   In 1982, says Mr. Rogers, one of the threads from his samples was carbon dated - unbenownst to himself and against the wishes of Roman Catholic officials who had authorized the chemical analysis. Nevertheless, that test showed an age difference of more than 1,000 years between the newer and older fibres - and suggested the original portions of the shroud dated from around the year 200 A.D.  
 
"I have not been able to find any information on the accuracy and precision for the dating method used," says Mr. Roges. "However, the dates determined are so different that I could believe a real difference between the ends of the threads."   The shroud, preserved in Turin Cathedral, is held by many Christians to be the cloth in which Jesus Christ was wrapped after the Crucifixion. Venerated for centuries as the Holy Shroud, it preserves the image of a tall man with crucifixion marks which only came to light when the 4.37-metre-by-1.11-metre cloth was first photographed at the end of the 19th century.
 
(First published 8-21-02)
 
 
 
1988 Carbon-Dating Of The Shroud Questioned
 
By Orazio Petrosillo Il Messaggero
8-9-02
 

[Swimmy]

I wish to provide a link. Maybe bippy can go over it and the issues raised in it

http://strawshredder.wordpress.com

Hey Swimmy, this talking about Colin perry the pseudo scientist who claimed that theshroud was a scorch and that theory was debunked many years ago by the sturp scientists. The shroud.com site has a great search function that shows why the image can't be a scorch, plus he never answered the question I challenged him with as to how a scorch could creat xray information. When I posed the question to him under another screen name he said it was xray like and not X-rays , in other words he dodged my question.

The knowledgable shroud researchers at Dan Porters blog asked him to get this theory submitted to peer review and Colin said that he didn't feel like it loooooool. No skeptic site will fund him even nickel . So it's basically a theory with from an atheist with a good imagination that doesn't feel like answering the challenge and one that no atheist organization would touch with a 10 foot pole, especially after the complete failure of the 2009 atheist organization of italy's funded test to replicate the shroud.

The mountain of peer reviewed research is almost all favoring authenticity.
I can't wait till I have the time to take physicist John Jackson's advanced shroud course at the center in Colorado .
Then I will get a much better grip on the physics behind the shroud image.

On a side note you guys should try to get some I formation on sue benford, as she was one of the 2 people that said that the c14 sample that was tested was a reweave. If it wasn't for her and Marino ray Rogers probably would never have done the peer reviewed chemical analysis that debunked the c14 test.
Interesting that some people claimed that she told them that Jesus told her to have someone recheck that test:)

Guys I can't stress enough how important it is to view the fabric of time, and if you can to get the full DVD which has the extras like the sudarium of Oviedo tests, and the interviews with art and textile experts. I lent my copy to a friend who won't return it.
My friend in Oklahoma bought an extra copy to show at her church. She had never heard of the shroud before and was very excited after she watched it.
God Bless

Indeed. From 2012 on the scorch theory

Image on the Shroud of Turin Not a Scorch-Arrhenius Law
Posted by Dan â‹… 2012

As discussed in (3. Why radiation did not cause images), the crystallinity of the flax fibers in all of the parts of the Shroud that were not scorched has not been significantly degraded.

The Arrhenius Law describes the effect of temperature on rate constants for all consistent chemical reactions, as follows:

k = Ze-E/RT



where k is the rate constant at any specific temperature, Z is the Arrhenius pre-exponential (related to the probability that any specific molecule(s) will react), E is the Arrhenius activation energy, R is the gas constant, and T is any specific, constant absolute temperature (degrees Kelvin). If the image were a scorch or any part of the Shroud had been heated enough to make significant changes in the rates of decomposition of any of its components, we would see changes in the structure of the flax fibers and blood. The blood still evolves hydroxyproline on mild heating, and the cellulose crystals are largely undistorted. Image and control fibers show identical crystal properties. The image is not a scorch. The cloth was not heated, not even boiled in oil.

[bippy123]

Nice find swim
Now your rocking.
Also when with an image formed by a heated scorch the image wouldn't floresc, but the shroud image does.
Dan Porter has been researching the shroud and he has a very good group that post regularly on his blog.

[bippy123]

Philip, you might want to try this site also as they seem to have done their homework.
Here are parts of Ray Rogers thermochimica acta research paper.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html

1988 CARBON-14 TEST REFUTED

Several studies have challenged the validity of the 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs.

1. A Jan 20, 2005 paper in the professional journal ThermoChimica Acta by Dr. Ray Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory and lead chemist with the original science team STURP (the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, involving approximately 35 scientists directly examining the Shroud for five days), has proven conclusively that the sample cut from The Shroud of Turin in 1988 was taken from an area of the cloth that was re-woven during the middle ages. Here are some excerpts:

"Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud."

"The shroud was badly damaged in a church fire in 1532 AD. Nuns patched burn holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing cloth that is now known as the Holland cloth." This probably occurred in 1534.

"As part of the shroud of turin research project (STURP), I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud and associated textiles in 1978."  "It enabled direct chemical testing on recovered linen fibers and particulates".

"If the shroud had been produced between 1260 and 1390 AD, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in 1260 AD would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978...  The Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens gave the test [i.e. tested positive] for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes.  The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported."

"The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally.  The thermal conductivity of linen is very low... therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot."  "The cloth's center would not have heated at all in the time available.  The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact."  "Different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas.  No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test [i.e. tested positive]."  "The lignin on shroud samples and on samples from the Dead Sea scrolls does not give the test [i.e. tests negative]."

"Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test [i.e. test negative], the cloth must be quite old."  "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old.  Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years."

"A gum/dye/mordant [(for affixing dye)] coating is easy to observe on... radiocarbon [sample] yarns.  No other part of the shroud shows such a coating."  "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed. Dyeing was probably done intentionally on pristine replacement material to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth."  "The dye found on the radiocarbon sample was not used in Europe before about 1291 AD and was not common until more than 100 years later."  "Specifically, the color and distribution of the coating implies that repairs were made at an unknown time with foreign linen dyed to match the older original material."  "The consequence of this conclusion is that the radiocarbon sample was not representative of the original cloth."

"The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth.  The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud."

"A significant amount of charred cellulose was removed during a restoration of the shroud in 2002."  "A new radiocarbon analysis should be done on the charred material retained from the 2002 restoration."

Raymond N. Rogers. 20 January 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, Issue 1-2, Pages 189-194.

[Philip]

Thanks all for the additional references/info!

And so it would appear that my idea of secretly performing additional tests on the Shroud may well already be in process.

And, here's the thing. I find it intriguing that the lady who originated the answer as to the problem with the C14 testing says that Jesus provided the answer - even realizing and acknowledging that people would think she was just another "nut job." But nut jobs rarely provide answers to exceptionally difficult questions that top scientists have overlooked. And IF her vision story is true, then it would also mean that we shouldn't fear a PROPERLY done testing upon a RELEVANT, ORIGINAL portion of the Shroud - meaning that the science works, but that it must be done correctly on evidences.

Also very interesting, from the fire of 1532 to the possible arson fire of 1997, the Shroud seems to have been protected from incidents that could have easily destroyed it.

[Swimmy]

Maybe I missed it. But why weren't any Myrhh/oils or whatever found on cloth? I heard that maybe it was washed off...However, nothing substantial that I 've seen. It would also seem unlikely that someone would wash a something like that in fear of ruining it,

[bippy123]

Maybe I missed it. But why weren't any Myrhh/oils or whatever found on cloth? I heard that maybe it was washed off...However, nothing substantial that I 've seen. It would also seem unlikely that someone would wash a something like that in fear of ruining it,

Swimmy, Doctor Max Frei the famous swiss criminologist who also one of the sturp team members did find residue of what was most likely myrrh and other spices. Max Frei was an old school criminologist and if you would have seen the look on Ray Rogers when Frei applied his adhesive take directly on the shroud u would have seen how ticked off Rogers was with Frei and it took the Physicist John Jackson to get in between them or who knows what would have happened. I think Rogers was the point where he wanted to smack Frei lol.

Max Frei's method was pressing the tape down extremely hard on the shroud, and Rogers and the other sturp team member were afrid that he was goingto damage the image area (if I remember correctly), and this is the reason why he found these Myrrh residues and rogers didnt. Frei revolutioned the method used in finding the guilty perpetrators of crime by finding the pollen that links them to the crime. He was a heavy hitter at the time.


This is fromthe THE THIRD DALLAS INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
ON THE SHROUD OF TURIN: DALLAS, TEXAS, SEPTEMBER 8-11, 2005
If you notice one of the peoples names at the top right below the title is good ole Dan Porter, so believe me when I say hes been researching the shroud for a long time and has been in contact with some of the sturp team members. Good guy

where a few researchers found residues of myrrh and other oils(Baima Bollone, Max frei and one other researcher), while Rogers and heller didnt find any with their tests.I believe Rogers test was done in 2003 . The shroud had a restoration done in 2002 and I believe the restoration hurt the later tests for myrrh. Many researchers thought the restoration was a mistake. Bollone's and frei's tests were done before the restoration.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf
Residues of what is most probably myrrh and aloe have also been discovered, mentioned directly in the gospel of john, 19:39-40, "Nicodemus came as well...and he brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes...They took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, following the Jewish burial custom."


D14) “And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of
myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds” (Joh 19:39). “Then they took the body of Jesus, and
bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury” (Joh 19:40). Some
researchers state that the TS body was buried with aromatics such as aloe and myrrh because they
found their traces on the cloth (Baima Bollone 1983).

[DRDS]

Say Bip, did you find what you were looking for in that link I posted on this thread yesterday?

[Philip]

Interesting differences between translations, as to the amount of weight in spices that Nicodemus brought:

ESV: "About 75 pounds"

NIV: "About 75 pounds"

NASB: "About 100 pounds"

King James: "About an 100 pound weight"

Whatever the accurate amount, 75 - 100 lbs. seems like an HUGE amount for one body. Whatever, I can see why undertakers became big business.

[bippy123]

There was a video on YouTube from the spokesperson of the sturp team DR. Kenneth Stevenson which I can't find now (so frustrating) as it didn't have his name on title of the video, where he gives a great initial lecture on the injuries and the image of the man on the shroud.

DRDS he was one of the baptists that was on the sturp team and he and Gary Habermas teamed together to write a book on the shroud. I forgot the name but I heard it's a good book.

Let me know if this helps, I found this while searching on youtube for Dr. Kenneth Stevenson.

http://dingorex.xanga.com/videos/838881191558/

DRDS , this isnt the video presentation that was given by Kenneth Stevenson but this yet another great interview of him and it shows how instrumental he was in getting the Sturp team together. He also talks about the sloppy way in which the c14 dating was handled and the fact that so many protocols were violated. Great audio interview, im saving thsi under my favorites as it shows that even back in 1990 there were serious objections to the way in which the c14 test was done and I must admit Doctor Kenneth Stevenson is one of my favorite shroud researchers.

Im still in search of that elusive video interview by Stevenson. Its like it disappeared off of youtube.
You guys are really bringing good stuff here on this thread

I didnt even know Stevenson was a pastor until I heard this audio interview
He also talks about in the audio interview of the thousands of people that came back to Christ through the shroud.

He also talks about how back in 1990 there was alot of misinformation about the shroud, especially in evangelical circles and that he wants to get the true information (scientific and historical) out especially into the evangelical circles.

Like I said, he is one of my favorite sturp researchers.
Good work DRDS

[bippy123]

Let me first say that I hate the history channel because of their pro secular view and all of their crazy conspiracy theories but this was a very nice documentary called the face of Jesus where Expert Ray downing using 3d and computer animated processes to try to decipher how the real face of Jesus looked like and the shroud was his blue print. When the picture is shown in the end it brought chills to me, My hairs wereactually standing up.

This is the full movie where they actually try to reconstruct the whole body and the face of Jesus , and it shows the incredible brutality of the injuries done to him on the image of the shroud

1 hour and 27 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvAJRp4C ... re=related

[Danieltwotwenty]

I am so going to watch this tonight, thanks Bippy.

[bippy123]

I am so going to watch this tonight, thanks Bippy.

Welcome buddy
Enjoy
And God bless