Total Depravity

[Byblos]

Before we go on and accuse, disparage, or criticize Calvinism in any way (not accusing anyone in particular myself, I just know where these discussions often lead), here's a question I have yet to have a satisfactory answer for: If TD is wrong, could someone please offer an alternative that does NOT result in a paleagian or at a minimum a semi-paleagian position? Thank you very much.

[PaulSacramento]

Before we go on and accuse, disparage, or criticize Calvinism in any way (not accusing anyone in particular myself, I just know where these discussions often lead), here's a question I have yet to have a satisfactory answer for: If TD is wrong, could someone please offer an alternative that does NOT result in a paleagian or at a minimum a semi-paleagian position? Thank you very much.

Could it be that SOME are special elect by God for "good works", such as the apostles?
Could it be the the special elect chosen by God are just that, special elect ( Christ choose the 12 for a reason right?) and that the "rest of us" are simply a "little crowd" saved by faith in Christ Our Lord?

[RickD]

Before we go on and accuse, disparage, or criticize Calvinism in any way (not accusing anyone in particular myself, I just know where these discussions often lead), here's a question I have yet to have a satisfactory answer for: If TD is wrong, could someone please offer an alternative that does NOT result in a paleagian or at a minimum a semi-paleagian position? Thank you very much.

Do you want an alternative besides the Catholic view? Or, is the Catholic view good enough for you?

From Wikipedia:

The Roman Catholic Church condemns semipelagianism but affirms that the beginning of faith involves an act of free will. It teaches that the initiative comes from God, but requires free synergy (collaboration) on the part of man: "God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration".[2] "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."[3]

[RickD]

Or another, from http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/i ... art_6.html

I know it's a Calvinist site giving an Arminian view.

1. Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

[Byblos]

Before we go on and accuse, disparage, or criticize Calvinism in any way (not accusing anyone in particular myself, I just know where these discussions often lead), here's a question I have yet to have a satisfactory answer for: If TD is wrong, could someone please offer an alternative that does NOT result in a paleagian or at a minimum a semi-paleagian position? Thank you very much.

Do you want an alternative besides the Catholic view? Or, is the Catholic view good enough for you?

From Wikipedia:

The Roman Catholic Church condemns semipelagianism but affirms that the beginning of faith involves an act of free will. It teaches that the initiative comes from God, but requires free synergy (collaboration) on the part of man: "God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration".[2] "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."[3]

I don't know why you always feel the need to imply that I'm asking a question from a Catholic perspective or that I'm looking for an answer that agrees with my position. To answer your question, yes, I am looking for an answer that has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic position.

And Paul, you didn't answer my question.

[RickD]

I don't know why you always feel the need to imply that I'm asking a question from a Catholic perspective or that I'm looking for an answer that agrees with my position. To answer your question, yes, I am looking for an answer that has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic position.

I gave you two. One Catholic. One Arminian.(at least Arminian, from a Calvinist's perspective)

I'm not Catholic, nor Arminian, but, neither are semi-Pelagian, IMO.

[Byblos]

I don't know why you always feel the need to imply that I'm asking a question from a Catholic perspective or that I'm looking for an answer that agrees with my position. To answer your question, yes, I am looking for an answer that has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic position.

I gave you two. One Catholic. One Arminian.(at least Arminian, from a Calvinist's perspective)

I'm not Catholic, nor Arminian, but, neither are semi-Pelagian, IMO.

Okay, so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

[RickD]

I don't know why you always feel the need to imply that I'm asking a question from a Catholic perspective or that I'm looking for an answer that agrees with my position. To answer your question, yes, I am looking for an answer that has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic position.

I gave you two. One Catholic. One Arminian.(at least Arminian, from a Calvinist's perspective)

I'm not Catholic, nor Arminian, but, neither are semi-Pelagian, IMO.

Okay, so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

Oh God! Not this again! Is Danny back?
No secret power, Byblos. Just man's God-given free will, in unison with God's grace. Some choose to accept the gospel, others don't. Not in any power of themselves. Unless you want to call the ability to choose, given from God, as a "secret Power". I don't know any other way to explain this, other than the way I explained it the other 50,000 times I've been asked this exact question. Each person is unique. Each person has a different way that they open up to the Holy Spirit's calling.

[PaulSacramento]

And Paul, you didn't answer my question.

Oh, I am sorry, I misunderstood it to be about the "elected". My bad.

[RickD]

Byblos, I know you don't believe in the TULIP view of depravity. So, how do you answer your own question?

so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

[Byblos]

Byblos, I know you don't believe in the TULIP view of depravity. So, how do you answer your own question?

so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

This is one of those conundrums I have for which I have no answer Rick. I don't believe in TD simply because I defer to the wisdom of my Church on the matter, it is as simple as that. But if you ask me if I find merit in it, the answer is a resounding YES. The way I see it there are only 2 positions, TD on one side and semi-paleagianism on the other, there is no in between. If you're not with one you're with the other.

[Byblos]

[Okay, so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

Oh God! Not this again! Is Danny back?
No secret power, Byblos. Just man's God-given free will, in unison with God's grace. Some choose to accept the gospel, others don't. Not in any power of themselves. Unless you want to call the ability to choose, given from God, as a "secret Power". I don't know any other way to explain this, other than the way I explained it the other 50,000 times I've been asked this exact question. Each person is unique. Each person has a different way that they open up to the Holy Spirit's calling.

So one's free will is responsible for one's salvation then? And you don't find at least semi-paleagianism in that?

[PaulSacramento]

Byblos, I know you don't believe in the TULIP view of depravity. So, how do you answer your own question?

so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

This is one of those conundrums I have for which I have no answer Rick. I don't believe in TD simply because I defer to the wisdom of my Church on the matter, it is as simple as that. But if you ask me if I find merit in it, the answer is a resounding YES. The way I see it there are only 2 positions, TD on one side and semi-paleagianism on the other, there is no in between. If you're not with one you're with the other.

So, in your view ( making sure I understand you correctly), there are only two options:
TD, where man is totally corrupt and only God can save Him
Semi-pelagianisim where Man chooses via free will to begin to have faith in God.
Yes?

[RickD]

Byblos, I know you don't believe in the TULIP view of depravity. So, how do you answer your own question?

so now tell me, why is it that some cooperate with God's free gift and are saved, and yet others do not cooperate with God's free gift and remain reprobate? What is this secret power inherent in the ones that do believe that somehow is lacking in the ones that don't?

This is one of those conundrums I have for which I have no answer Rick. I don't believe in TD simply because I defer to the wisdom of my Church on the matter, it is as simple as that. But if you ask me if I find merit in it, the answer is a resounding YES. The way I see it there are only 2 positions, TD on one side and semi-paleagianism on the other, there is no in between. If you're not with one you're with the other.

Ok, Byblos. I believe, as I've said before, that God gives man free-will, in the sense that He gives man the ability to choose to have faith in Christ, or choose to deny Christ. I believe that God wants us to choose to love Him. If the only way we are able to choose to love Him, is that some choose not to love Him, then that's the way it is. Love is not love, if it is forced. Double predestination, IMO, is forced love.

there are only 2 positions, TD on one side and semi-paleagianism on the other, there is no in between. If you're not with one you're with the other.

So, you believe that the Catholic and Arminian views are semi-Pelagian?

[RickD]

fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish

I don't presume to say that man is unaided by God's grace in any way, as this article says that semi-pelagianism says.