Genesis flood question to ponder

[Katabole]

Can't OEC believe in a global flood also?

I do. As an OEC ruin/reconstruction creationist or gap creationist, part of this creation model asserts that there were two floods, not just one. The first was a global flood that resulted in the destruction of the first heaven and earth age, 2Pet 3:5-6. The second was a local flood as described in Genesis ch 6.

[twinc]

Can't OEC believe in a global flood also?

I do. As an OEC ruin/reconstruction creationist or gap creationist, part of this creation model asserts that there were two floods, not just one. The first was a global flood that resulted in the destruction of the first heaven and earth age, 2Pet 3:5-6. The second was a local flood as described in Genesis ch 6.

Katabole - there was only one flood the global flood of Noah as Genesis 6 - certified by Christ and St.Peter - btw if only a local flood then God has broken His covenant many times as at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

[Danieltwotwenty]

Can't OEC believe in a global flood also?

I do. As an OEC ruin/reconstruction creationist or gap creationist, part of this creation model asserts that there were two floods, not just one. The first was a global flood that resulted in the destruction of the first heaven and earth age, 2Pet 3:5-6. The second was a local flood as described in Genesis ch 6.

Katabole - there was only one flood the global flood of Noah as Genesis 6 - certified by Christ and St.Peter - btw if only a local flood then God has broken His covenant many times as at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

The whole Human race was contained on the Mesopotamian plain and was wiped out by the local flood, this does not contradict Gen.9:11 (NIV) as God has never wiped out the whole human race or destroyed all the earth (the land, MESOPOTAMIAN PLAIN) with a flood since the first time.

Dan

[Katabole]

Katabole - there was only one flood

I beg to differ. 2Peter 3: 5-13 when kept in context is speaking about three different ages and is certainly not speaking about Noah's flood.

Verses 5-6 first age. The world that then was. Past Age. That age perished.
Verse 7. But the heavens and earth which are now. Present Age. Same as Gal 1:4.
Verse 13. New heavens and new earth. Age to come. Same as Heb 2:5; Heb 6:5.

In 2Peter chapter 2, however, Peter is certainly speaking about Noah's flood in 2Peter 2:5. Peter however, does not call it the 'world that then was' as he does in the third chapter. He calls the time of the antediluvian patriarchs during Noah's day simply, 'the old world' or 'the ancient world'.

btw if only a local flood then God has broken His covenant many times

No God hasn't. The purpose of Noah's flood was to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels and human women, called the giants or geber in the Hebrew and was certainly not directed at destroying all life on earth.

You should probably do a study Twinc on the uses of the Hebrew words for earth and land as utilized in the Old Testament. For example, In Exodus 10:15, locusts supposedly covered the face of the "whole earth" so that the land was darkened similar to waters covering the face of the "whole earth" in the Noah story. But we know when keeping this in context that the locusts only covered part of the "land" of Egypt. The Hebrew word 'erets' or Earth is transliterated into the English as the words "earth" 665 times, "land" 1581 times, "country" 44 times, "ground" 119 times, "lands" 57 times and "countries", 15 times.

Same in Gen 41:56. Famine was over "all the face of the earth" similar to the flood being over "all the face of the earth". But keeping it in context, the famine was certainly only a localized famine in the Mediterranean region.

[twinc]

Katebole - it seems you have not or did not as advised consult the internet or Bible at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

[PaulSacramento]

Its quite obvious that the hebrew word for "earth" and "land" has multiple meanings, as is the fact that "all" is to be read withing the context of what is being written, ie: ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in everything single thing.
Just as we can say, " I put all my money into this and it didn't work" doesn't mean that you truly put every single penny you had.
Also, lest not forget that there are two flood accounts in Genesis and that this very flood is mentioned in older Mesapotamian writings.

[twinc]

Its quite obvious that the hebrew word for "earth" and "land" has multiple meanings, as is the fact that "all" is to be read withing the context of what is being written, ie: ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in everything single thing.
Just as we can say, " I put all my money into this and it didn't work" doesn't mean that you truly put every single penny you had.
Also, lest not forget that there are two flood accounts in Genesis and that this very flood is mentioned in older Mesapotamian writings.

it seems you also have not or did not read Genesis.9:1-16 - twinc

[RickD]

Its quite obvious that the hebrew word for "earth" and "land" has multiple meanings, as is the fact that "all" is to be read withing the context of what is being written, ie: ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in everything single thing.
Just as we can say, " I put all my money into this and it didn't work" doesn't mean that you truly put every single penny you had.
Also, lest not forget that there are two flood accounts in Genesis and that this very flood is mentioned in older Mesapotamian writings.

it seems you also have not or did not read Genesis.9:1-16 - twinc

So twinc, according to your interpretation of earth meaning the entire globe, then the fear of Noah will be upon all the birds and beasts in the entire globe. That would include Australia, which Noah wouldn't even go to. So kangaroos in Australia would have the fear of Noah ?
Talk about way out, weird, wacky theology ad absurtum!

[PaulSacramento]

Its quite obvious that the hebrew word for "earth" and "land" has multiple meanings, as is the fact that "all" is to be read withing the context of what is being written, ie: ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in everything single thing.
Just as we can say, " I put all my money into this and it didn't work" doesn't mean that you truly put every single penny you had.
Also, lest not forget that there are two flood accounts in Genesis and that this very flood is mentioned in older Mesapotamian writings.

it seems you also have not or did not read Genesis.9:1-16 - twinc

Oh I have and I have read it through the eyes of the literalistic AND the eyes of the Genreist.
You do know there were TWO Genesis accounts right?

[PaulSacramento]

Genesis 9:1–16

Covenant of the Rainbow

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “aBe fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

2 “The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the 1sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.

3 “Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, aas I gave the green plant.

4 “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, aits blood.

5 “Surely I will require 1ayour lifeblood; 2bfrom every beast I will require it. And 2from every man, 2from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

6 “aWhoever sheds man’s blood,

By man his blood shall be shed,

For bin the image of God

He made man.

7 “As for you, abe fruitful and multiply;

1Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it.”

8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying,

9 “Now behold, aI Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your 1descendants after you;

10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.

11 “I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall anever again be cut off by the water of the flood, bneither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 God said, “This is athe sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for 1all successive generations;

13 I set My abow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.

14 “It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud,

15 and aI will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and bnever again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16 “When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the aeverlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”


and:

Genesis 8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Flood Subsides

8 But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water subsided. 2 Also the fountains of the deep and the [a]floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained; 3 and the water receded steadily from the earth, and at the end of one hundred and fifty days the water decreased. 4 In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.

6 Then it came about at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made; 7 and he sent out a raven, and it flew here and there until the water was dried up [c]from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove from him, to see if the water was abated from the face of the land; 9 but the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, so she returned to him into the ark, for the water was on the [d]surface of all the earth. Then he put out his hand and took her, and brought her into the ark to himself. 10 So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark. 11 The dove came to him toward [e]evening, and behold, in her [f]beak was a freshly picked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the water was abated from the earth. 12 Then he waited yet another seven days, and sent out the dove; but she did not return to him again.

13 Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up [g]from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the [h]surface of the ground was dried up. 14 In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. 15 Then God spoke to Noah, saying, 16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, that they may breed abundantly on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.” 18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him. 19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out [j]by their families from the ark.

20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said [k]to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the [l]intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again [m]destroy every living thing, as I have done.

22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

[secretfire6]

I've read tons and tons of evidence from YEC "scientists" that have been used to try and push their position on creation. Out of all that evidence, which is enough to make a book in itself, only one..yes ONE point has not been proven wrong beyond any shadow of a doubt. That point is at a standstill right now because it can neither prove nor disprove either creation view. Whenever I debate young vs old earth creation with someone I get them backed into a corner of proof, then I allways hear the same things when they are stuck. 1. "God made it that way. he can do anything. You have to have faith" 2. "satan will do anything to trick you" 3. "I've heard that all before. It's all lies and they dont know what they are talking about"

Another thing i hear alot of is "flood geology". So many proponents of young earth creation use this as thier cornerstone and give it the strangest magical powers I've ever heard of, like the following: the flood completely destroyed and rebuilt the earth, it slowed down time, it changed the fundementals of nuclear physics, it altered the human mind's perception of reality and so on. When i ask what these things are based on they either say nothing (which means they haven't thought of that) or they tell me its in the bible....somewhere (which means they havent thought of that)
I'm still waiting for someone to present some good points or proof for the YEC position

there is here no problem for an old YEC that used to be a long time young OEC - so the problem would appear to be you and your resistance to good points presented - so just try this one "millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rocks layers laid down by water all over the earth - repeat all over the earth" - twinc

yes because there are and have been living things living all over the earth and there have been living things dying all over the earth and not all of them were "laid down by water" some of them were, some of them were not. The assumption is that all these things died at one specific time. the tests and evidence show us they did not.

[secretfire6]

Katebole - it seems you have not or did not as advised consult the internet or Bible at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

if you are implying that this is proof that "earth" in our english bibles must allways mean planet earth, you now have a problem. if you interpret this into these ideals you would get the following statement "be fruitful and multiply and fill the planet". so we must ask, did God intend humans to fill the seas? No. Did God intend humans to fill the lakes, rivers and streams? No. Did God intend humans to fill every highest mountain top? No. The polar regions? No. We did multiply and fill the habitable land (erets). without boats we cannot survive long in the water, without planes we cannot get into the sky at all, without extra clothing and oxygen tanks we cannot survive high elevations. God did not build us to suvive in these places, so how could God tell us to fill these places? The answer is he didnt.
The suggestion i would give to everyone here, regarldess of your interpretation of Genesis, is to learn ancient hebrew AND their culture, how they understood things and then find Genesis written in hebrew and read it with their understanding. Since they wrote it they would know what they mean. the main website of godandscience.org has done a good job at this. Whenever you read a translation or version of a scripture you are allways, in part, reading someone else's ideas or guesses as to what it means

[twinc]

Can't OEC believe in a global flood also?

I do. As an OEC ruin/reconstruction creationist or gap creationist, part of this creation model asserts that there were two floods, not just one. The first was a global flood that resulted in the destruction of the first heaven and earth age, 2Pet 3:5-6. The second was a local flood as described in Genesis ch 6.

Katabole - there was only one flood the global flood of Noah as Genesis 6 - certified by Christ and St.Peter - btw if only a local flood then God has broken His covenant many times as at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

all this due to self esteemed correct interpretations ad infinitum/ad absurdum - what the Catholic Church teaches about Origins [binding on all Catholics] may be seen at www.kolbecenter.org - twinc

[twinc]

I've read tons and tons of evidence from YEC "scientists" that have been used to try and push their position on creation. Out of all that evidence, which is enough to make a book in itself, only one..yes ONE point has not been proven wrong beyond any shadow of a doubt. That point is at a standstill right now because it can neither prove nor disprove either creation view. Whenever I debate young vs old earth creation with someone I get them backed into a corner of proof, then I allways hear the same things when they are stuck. 1. "God made it that way. he can do anything. You have to have faith" 2. "satan will do anything to trick you" 3. "I've heard that all before. It's all lies and they dont know what they are talking about"

Another thing i hear alot of is "flood geology". So many proponents of young earth creation use this as thier cornerstone and give it the strangest magical powers I've ever heard of, like the following: the flood completely destroyed and rebuilt the earth, it slowed down time, it changed the fundementals of nuclear physics, it altered the human mind's perception of reality and so on. When i ask what these things are based on they either say nothing (which means they haven't thought of that) or they tell me its in the bible....somewhere (which means they havent thought of that)
I'm still waiting for someone to present some good points or proof for the YEC position

there is here no problem for an old YEC that used to be a long time young OEC - so the problem would appear to be you and your resistance to good points presented - so just try this one "millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rocks layers laid down by water all over the earth - repeat all over the earth" - twinc

yes because there are and have been living things living all over the earth and there have been living things dying all over the earth and not all of them were "laid down by water" some of them were, some of them were not. The assumption is that all these things died at one specific time. the tests and evidence show us they did not.

of course that is your incorrect take - it seems you do not really understand how fossils come about and came about including the Cambrian explosion nor why once thousands of Bisons roamed the American plains there are no real fossils as such - come home now - twinc

[twinc]

Katebole - it seems you have not or did not as advised consult the internet or Bible at Gen.9:1-16 - twinc

if you are implying that this is proof that "earth" in our english bibles must allways mean planet earth, you now have a problem. if you interpret this into these ideals you would get the following statement "be fruitful and multiply and fill the planet". so we must ask, did God intend humans to fill the seas? No. Did God intend humans to fill the lakes, rivers and streams? No. Did God intend humans to fill every highest mountain top? No. The polar regions? No. We did multiply and fill the habitable land (erets). without boats we cannot survive long in the water, without planes we cannot get into the sky at all, without extra clothing and oxygen tanks we cannot survive high elevations. God did not build us to suvive in these places, so how could God tell us to fill these places? The answer is he didnt.
The suggestion i would give to everyone here, regarldess of your interpretation of Genesis, is to learn ancient hebrew AND their culture, how they understood things and then find Genesis written in hebrew and read it with their understanding. Since they wrote it they would know what they mean. the main website of godandscience.org has done a good job at this. Whenever you read a translation or version of a scripture you are allways, in part, reading someone else's ideas or guesses as to what it means

in the main eminent Scripture scholars have a grasp of ancient Hebrew and their culture as also Jewish scholars - your problem is you have no common ground of agreement but endless conclusions and interpretations ad infinitum/ad absurdum - twinc