Several questions concerning the fall and evil

[MAGSolo]

jlay, before we get into all that, can you tell me why you believe the bible to be the word of God?

You keep asking for personal opinions, does that mean you accept them as valid answers to your questions?

Well in your case you didnt provide any evidence, you just said 4 years of personal research and 3 years into a bachelors in theology led you to believe it personally. You didnt give any details about the research or say how any of that research caused you to believe the bible is the word of God. Do you think you could present a convincing argument for why the bible is the word of God? Besides that, noone else has bothered to answer the question and really not a single person has provided a shred of evidence for the bible being the word of God.

[PaulSacramento]

jlay, before we get into all that, can you tell me why you believe the bible to be the word of God?

You keep asking for personal opinions, does that mean you accept them as valid answers to your questions?

Well in your case you didnt provide any evidence, you just said 4 years of personal research and 3 years into a bachelors in theology led you to believe it personally. You didnt give any details about the research or say how any of that research caused you to believe the bible is the word of God. Do you think you could present a convincing argument for why the bible is the word of God? Besides that, noone else has bothered to answer the question and really not a single person has provided a shred of evidence for the bible being the word of God.

Evidence?
Dude, come on now.
You asked a question and I, and other replied, if you don't like the answers, ask better questions.
You want a list of all the books I read and researched in those 4 years? all the priests, pastors, rabbis and atheists I spoke with? All the scholarly articles, books and essays I have read in 3 years in Theology class ?
All that lead me to believe a lot about the bible, not just its value in terms of theology but history too.
You ask me if I can present a convincing argument that the Bible is the Word of God, first of, CHRIST is the Word of God, the Bible is God's word in Human Words, lets no confuse the two.
Second, you want a convincing argument about the AUTHORITY of the bible, that's it isn't it?
There is no way to prove to anyone that the Bible is God's word ( evidence does NOT equal proof and you know this), and deep down your issue isn't even that, your issue seems to be the Authority of the bible, namely, doe sit have any, am I right?

[MAGSolo]

Yes, I dont believe the bible has any authority ordained from God. I believe it is a book written and conceived by men with no divine influence.

[PaulSacramento]

Yes, I dont believe the bible has any authority ordained from God. I believe it is a book written and conceived by men with no divine influence.

And you are entitled to that belief.
Of course I have to ask WHY you feel that way and on what do you base that view?

[MAGSolo]

Here you go again muddying the waters. This is not about what I believe. How can you bear witness without providing an argument for why the bible has any authority? I would think anyones first question when being told about Jesus or God should be, "why should that book mean anything special to me?" But to answer your question, I feel that way because nobody has presented a compelling argument, nobody has presented any evidence for why I should feel otherwise. Do you think that belief in spectacular claims should be the default position? Do you believe the Book of Mormon is a sacred and divine text because Mormons claim it is? Would you require evidence for such a claim or just believe it because they claimed it to be so? I dont understand why you needlessly complicate these things. Is it so hard to just admit that you dont have a compelling argument for why the bible has any authority. Obviously if you had one you would have given it by now, so why cant you just say you dont have one?

[MAGSolo]

Now I know I saw jlay in here and yet he has left without responding to my very simple inquiry. I certainly hope he returns to answer.

[PaulSacramento]

I never really dealt with the issue of bible authority or inspiration until I became a Christian.
The biggest hurdle I had was the suffering of innocents ( as I liked to put it).
Once that questions had been answered for me, I was able to accept Christ as my saviour, my Lord and God as my loving Father/creator.
AFTER that, I decided to look into the bible and the first step was the historicity of the bible.
I looked into bible criticism in its various forms ( textual critique, historical critique and so forth) how the canon came to be and the various views on bible inerrency, infallibility and authority.
The "contridictions" and "errors" that so many point out, I researched the pros and cons and, to be honest, I was looking to CONFIRM what I believed was the case: The bible is NOT inerrant, infallible and authoritative.
What I learned was NOT what I was looking for BUT it was also NOT what many fundamentalists were saying.

[MAGSolo]

So would you like to detail anything particularly notable that led you to believe the Bible had authority ordained by God?

[Byblos]

Here you go again muddying the waters. This is not about what I believe. How can you bear witness without providing an argument for why the bible has any authority? I would think anyones first question when being told about Jesus or God should be, "why should that book mean anything special to me?" But to answer your question, I feel that way because nobody has presented a compelling argument, nobody has presented any evidence for why I should feel otherwise. Do you think that belief in spectacular claims should be the default position? Do you believe the Book of Mormon is a sacred and divine text because Mormons claim it is? Would you require evidence for such a claim or just believe it because they claimed it to be so? I dont understand why you needlessly complicate these things. Is it so hard to just admit that you dont have a compelling argument for why the bible has any authority. Obviously if you had one you would have given it by now, so why cant you just say you dont have one?

Of course there is one, Mag, there are in fact many. I won't ask if you would accept any of them, I believe I already know the answer to that. But if we do provide answers, will you at least acknowledge the fact that not only they were presented but also if one is to look at them with a neutral view (if that is even possible) that they would make a compelling case for the Bible and for Christ (even though you don't believe that yourself)? Bottom line is, are you intellectually honest enough to admit that?

[MAGSolo]

nm

[MAGSolo]

Here you go again muddying the waters. This is not about what I believe. How can you bear witness without providing an argument for why the bible has any authority? I would think anyones first question when being told about Jesus or God should be, "why should that book mean anything special to me?" But to answer your question, I feel that way because nobody has presented a compelling argument, nobody has presented any evidence for why I should feel otherwise. Do you think that belief in spectacular claims should be the default position? Do you believe the Book of Mormon is a sacred and divine text because Mormons claim it is? Would you require evidence for such a claim or just believe it because they claimed it to be so? I dont understand why you needlessly complicate these things. Is it so hard to just admit that you dont have a compelling argument for why the bible has any authority. Obviously if you had one you would have given it by now, so why cant you just say you dont have one?

Of course there is one, Mag, there are in fact many. I won't ask if you would accept any of them, I believe I already know the answer to that. But if we do provide answers, will you at least acknowledge the fact that not only they were presented but also if one is to look at them with a neutral view (if that is even possible) that they would make a compelling case for the Bible and for Christ (even though you don't believe that yourself)? Bottom line is, are you intellectually honest enough to admit that?

I will acknowledge that if it is the case yes.

[Byblos]

Im going to leave that on the table and move along. Since its clear that my perspective of what is good and bad doesnt matter I want to get some different perspectives on the matter. Anyone who wants can answer this. Is God good and if he is what does it mean for God to be good? What are the limits to his goodness or is it infinite. Is he purely a good being incapable of doing anything wrong or unjust?

Now you're going philosophical on us. I would have preferred to have started with this but since this thread is already cluttered with a million direction, let's leave this topic for another thread, shall we?

[MAGSolo]

Well it all ties together so it doesnt really make sense to make a completely separate topic. Im just realizing now that I should have started on a smaller scale.

[Byblos]

Here you go again muddying the waters. This is not about what I believe. How can you bear witness without providing an argument for why the bible has any authority? I would think anyones first question when being told about Jesus or God should be, "why should that book mean anything special to me?" But to answer your question, I feel that way because nobody has presented a compelling argument, nobody has presented any evidence for why I should feel otherwise. Do you think that belief in spectacular claims should be the default position? Do you believe the Book of Mormon is a sacred and divine text because Mormons claim it is? Would you require evidence for such a claim or just believe it because they claimed it to be so? I dont understand why you needlessly complicate these things. Is it so hard to just admit that you dont have a compelling argument for why the bible has any authority. Obviously if you had one you would have given it by now, so why cant you just say you dont have one?

Of course there is one, Mag, there are in fact many. I won't ask if you would accept any of them, I believe I already know the answer to that. But if we do provide answers, will you at least acknowledge the fact that not only they were presented but also if one is to look at them with a neutral view (if that is even possible) that they would make a compelling case for the Bible and for Christ (even though you don't believe that yourself)? Bottom line is, are you intellectually honest enough to admit that?

I will acknowledge that if it is the case yes.

Very well, then. Give me until tomorrow to prepare something (nothing that is not presented on the home page of our website by the way, but I'll make a summary of it).

[Byblos]

Well it all ties together so it doesnt really make sense to make a completely separate topic. Im just realizing now that I should have started on a smaller scale.

Fine but let's just leave that until later though. One thing at a time, my little brain can't handle multitasking as it used to.