Eternal Security and Apostacy

[Gman]

Gmn wrote:

Yes I'm familiar with these verses. And yes we are sealed unless we choose to break these seals of security and live the life of sin. G-d can't control us, but He will pursue us like a loving Father.

Gman, would you say that you believe the Holy Spirit will leave us then, if we " live the life of sin"? And then, after God pursues us, and wins us back, the Holy Spirit returns inside of us?

I don't think I can answer that fully because I don't know what G-d or the Holy Spirit will do in all cases of sin. Of course you could argue that the person living in this sin never received the Holy Spirit anyway.. But ultimately if I choose to go against G-d and the Holy Spirit then that would be by my own free will. If I willfully choose to go against G-d even after He lavished me with His goodness. We couldn't really pin that on G-d.

[RickD]

Gmn wrote:

Yes I'm familiar with these verses. And yes we are sealed unless we choose to break these seals of security and live the life of sin. G-d can't control us, but He will pursue us like a loving Father.

Gman, would you say that you believe the Holy Spirit will leave us then, if we " live the life of sin"? And then, after God pursues us, and wins us back, the Holy Spirit returns inside of us?

I don't think I can answer that fully because I don't know what G-d or the Holy Spirit will do in all cases of sin. Of course you could argue that the person living in this sin never received the Holy Spirit anyway.. But ultimately if I choose to go against G-d and the Holy Spirit then that would be by my own free will. If I willfully choose to go against G-d even after He lavished me with His goodness. We couldn't really pin that on G-d.

I see, but in your example, we're talking about a believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Not an unbeliever. I know, at least in my case I do things that go against the Holy Spirit, too often. My human nature, is constantly at war with my spiritual nature, and the Holy Spirit in me. Am I going to lose my salvation then? Once we become saved, we become new creatures in Christ, don't we? If we have eternal life as a gift, how can it be eternal, if we lose it? Wouldn't it be better called temporary life?

[Gman]

I see, but in your example, we're talking about a believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Not an unbeliever. I know, at least in my case I do things that go against the Holy Spirit, too often. My human nature, is constantly at war with my spiritual nature, and the Holy Spirit in me. Am I going to lose my salvation then? Once we become saved, we become new creatures in Christ, don't we? If we have eternal life as a gift, how can it be eternal, if we lose it? Wouldn't it be better called temporary life?

That's a deeper question.. G-d knows that we are going to stumble and fall.. What I'm talking about here is willful sin... Like I don't want to have anymore part of G-d or the Bible. Also I think many think that they can just go on living a sinful life because G-d will always cover me. Therefore I can cheat, steal, or murder in the name of G-d because He has sealed me with His goodness. I guess I see a problem with that.

Again about the story of Esau. He had the birthright and all the glory that went with it, but in the end he rejected it.

[RickD]

I see, but in your example, we're talking about a believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Not an unbeliever. I know, at least in my case I do things that go against the Holy Spirit, too often. My human nature, is constantly at war with my spiritual nature, and the Holy Spirit in me. Am I going to lose my salvation then? Once we become saved, we become new creatures in Christ, don't we? If we have eternal life as a gift, how can it be eternal, if we lose it? Wouldn't it be better called temporary life?

That's a deeper question.. G-d knows that we are going to stumble and fall.. What I'm talking about here is willful sin... Like I don't want to have anymore part of G-d or the Bible. Also I think many think that they can just go on living a sinful life because G-d will always cover me. Therefore I can cheat, steal, or murder in the name of G-d because He has sealed me with His goodness. I guess I see a problem with that.

Again about the story of Esau. He had the birthright and all the glory that went with it, but in the end he rejected it.

I understand what you're saying, and I have a problem with anyone who thinks that way too. But, do you really think that a believer, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, would think that way?

And' what about John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

particularly "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish". God gives us eternal life, and we shall never perish. Sounds pretty secure, doesn't it?

[Gman]

I understand what you're saying, and I have a problem with anyone who thinks that way too. But, do you really think that a believer, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, would think that way?

And' what about John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

particularly "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish". God gives us eternal life, and we shall never perish. Sounds pretty secure, doesn't it?

Yes I agree.. And it is secure. But if someone chooses to go against His voice, then that would be their choice. Hey I just made a rhyme.

We still have freedom of will in this life. In the eternal life however, we won't have it.

[RickD]

Problems with the “lose your salvation” position

If salvation can be lost, this requires a reversal of regeneration. This means the born again must become unborn again. And if they subsequently repent, then they must become born again again. Can a man also be born again again again? Where does it end? Is regeneration really so transient? 
If salvation can be lost, “eternal life” cannot be eternal life. It could only be temporary hope for eternal life that couldn’t become eternal life until after we die. As long as we’re still here, how can we call “eternal” what can be lost? Scripture says believers currently have eternal life, not that we might eventually have eternal life. It says that the life we have is eternal, not possibly or potentially eternal (or “to be determined” by whether we manage to keep or lose it). It says we can know that we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). How can we know that if our salvation isn’t secure? 
If we can lose our salvation, we can also keep it—by abstaining from whatever it takes to lose it. This makes it at least partially dependent on our merits. This flies in the face of Scripture’s teaching that salvation is a miraculous work of God, dependent on Him, not us. If we can lose our salvation, how can we lose it? How can we keep it? What does our answer say about the nature of salvation and who it depends on? Is salvation a 50/50 proposition? Is it 10% us and 90% God? 90% God and 10% us? (Rewards are earned by our work for God, done in dependence on him, but salvation is not earned, it’s not a reward—it’s a gift, earned only by Christ, not us.) 
Question: If Judas had died soon after he followed Christ would he have gone to Heaven or Hell? If Peter had died soon after he denied Christ, would he have gone to Heaven or Hell? What do our answers suggest about what we really believe concerning the nature of salvation?

From:http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/8 ... se-their-/

[RickD]

Furthermore, doesn't 1 John 2:19, show that those who chose to deny Christ, never really belonged to Christ?
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[narnia4]

I should actually say what I believe on this. I absolutely believe in eternal security. I believe in absolute assurance. I believe in Perse- ok not going there again.

A couple things that Rick said/alluded to that I want to agree with-

It seems like most of us are sure that we're saved, its almost like we're more interested in absolute assurance for other people. But I don't believe we can have absolute assurance about other people for obvious reasons, we're not in their heads or hearts. There is always the possibility that they were phonies to begin with, never actually trusted, etc.

Secondly, I think we can have logical assurance rather than just a "feeling". Part of the problem is that people don't even know what they believe. I don't always know what I believe about things, I know that. I don't think its rare at all for people to wonder things like, "Have I ever even trusted Christ? or "Do I really believe in him?" So it isn't all about whether you "feel" secure, and yet that's what most people seem to be concerned with (understandably so really).

Edit- Rather than create a new post I'll just say man Rick, sometimes you almost sound downright Calvinistic!

[RickD]

Ten Reasons Why A True Child Of God Can Never Reject His Salvation

[RickD]

I should actually say what I believe on this. I absolutely believe in eternal security. I believe in absolute assurance. I believe in Perse- ok not going there again.

A couple things that Rick said/alluded to that I want to agree with-

It seems like most of us are sure that we're saved, its almost like we're more interested in absolute assurance for other people. But I don't believe we can have absolute assurance about other people for obvious reasons, we're not in their heads or hearts. There is always the possibility that they were phonies to begin with, never actually trusted, etc.

Secondly, I think we can have logical assurance rather than just a "feeling". Part of the problem is that people don't even know what they believe. I don't always know what I believe about things, I know that. I don't think its rare at all for people to wonder things like, "Have
I ever even trusted Christ? or "Do I really believe in him?" So it isn't all about whether you "feel"
secure, and yet that's what most people seem to be concerned with (understandably so really).

Narnia, that's almost exactly what I was trying to say earlier, when Jac and Byblos didn't understand what I meant.

[Gman]

Furthermore, doesn't 1 John 2:19, show that those who chose to deny Christ, never really belonged to Christ?
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Yes but the verse before seems to be talking about anti-Christs 1 John2:18. So they are impersonators of Christ, not really Christ's own to begin with.

[RickD]

Edit- Rather than create a new post I'll just say man Rick, sometimes you almost sound downright Calvinistic!

Narnia, that's because Calvinism isn't completely worthless.

[RickD]

Furthermore, doesn't 1 John 2:19, show that those who chose to deny Christ, never really belonged to Christ?
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Yes but the verse before seems to be talking about anti-Christs 1 John2:18. So they are impersonators of Christ, not really Christ's own to begin with.

I think that's the point. They were never Christ's to begin with. They were impersonators, all along. Wolves in sheep's clothing. They denied Christ, because they were never really his. A true believer wouldn't deny Christ.

[Gman]

I think that's the point. They were never Christ's to begin with. They were impersonators, all along. Wolves in sheep's clothing. They denied Christ, because they were never really his. A true believer wouldn't deny Christ.

True... A true believer wouldn't deny Christ. But this seems to be the case of an impersonator. I would also add here a lot of what we are talking about also has to do with obeying. Not just hearing or saying but obeying Christ too. This is another way how you can tell..

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 3:15, “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

[B. W.]

I think that's the point. They were never Christ's to begin with. They were impersonators, all along. Wolves in sheep's clothing. They denied Christ, because they were never really his. A true believer wouldn't deny Christ.

True... A true believer wouldn't deny Christ. But this seems to be the case of an impersonator. I would also add here a lot of what we are talking about also has to do with obeying. Not just hearing or saying but obeying Christ too. This is another way how you can tell..

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 3:15, “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

One of the definitions for an apostate would be an impersonator – one who stands off from Christ to spreads cancerous doctrines. The bible makes such folk as teachers/leaders and those that spread their wares, and not so much the average Joe Christian.

In fact AMG Complete Word Study Dictionary defines Apostasy in Hebrew and Greek in the following manner:

Strongs Hebrew 4878 ְמשׁוָּבה A feminine noun referring to a turning away, an apostasy, a backsliding. It indicates figuratively a way of life that is fluctuating, vacillating, insecure (Proverbs 1:32). In a religious sense, it indicates apostasy, turning from truth (Jer 2:19); a lack of constancy, a defection (Jer 3:6; Jer 5:6; Jer 8:5; Jer 14:7; Hos 14:4 [5]); or an act of turning away, a transgression (Eze 37:23; Hos 11:7).

Stongs Greek 646 - ἀποστασία - apostasía; gen. apostasías, fem. noun from aphístēmi (G868), to depart. Departure, apostasy. Occurs in Acts 21:21 translated "forsake" and in 2Th 2:3, "a falling away"; Sept.: 2Ch 29:19; Jer 29:32. In Acts 21:21 the new Christian believers among the Jews, having departed from Moses and coming to Jesus Christ, decided that they should stay apart from Moses, i.e., their Judaistic practices, for they were in a new dispensation. They were not Judaizing Christians, but Christians standing apart from Moses. In 2 Th 2:3 the word apostasía does not refer to genuine Christians who depart from the faith, but mere professors who, without divine grace, succumb to the Satanic deception of the Antichrist. If those who are truly Christ's and through the Holy Spirit have become members of His body (1Cor12:13) could be detached, then the assurances Jesus gave that His own will not perish would be made null and void (John 10:28-29). See Sept.: 2C h 29:19.

Next, regarding a willful sin – what sin is not willful?

Hebrews 10:26 has been taken out of context for too long. What do I mean? Well look at Hebrews 10:15-21 and note what it is saying?

Heb 10:15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Heb 10:21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,

The willful sin is actually defined in context with:

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

The willful sin applies only to people who reject Christ Jesus’ work on the Cross (the remission of sin as well as the Resurrection by which he became our High Priest). In other words, willful sin involves the rejection of Christ by means of the gospel message – sometime, after hearing it.

When does this occur?

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

What were these people learning to do, being taught to do? From the flow from chapter Nine into chapter Ten we notice something being said:

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

The willful sin involves returning to the OT sacrifice system, and blatant rejection of the Christian message altogether at the point of entering Judgment – when one dies, as that is only when wrath as Hebrews 10:29, 30, 31 mentions happens.

Now if a willful sin is any sin then what of Hebrews 10:17,18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23c?

Things are not always as they first appear…

The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the biggy – blaspheme the Holy Ghost which in essence found when a person enters into judgment and found to have rejected salvation of the Lord’s work – wrath awaits.

All bible quotes are from the NKJV
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