Responsibility

[Byblos]

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?

What do you think heaven is?

[Danieltwotwenty]

Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.

you know what, you are right, I mean look at the world around us, how flawed it us. Physics is flawed since it causes earthquakes, makes our planet go around and keeps it active. No one should have had teeth, especially animals since they kill for food and more so we do. No creation should have had the ability to reason or have proper brains. The sun burns because of the existence of chemical laws which when discovered were used to create fire and then a century ago or so the atomic power, clearly that has to go out too. Look at the water cycle and the earth geographical features which causes tremendous floods, how flawed! There should have been no death ever, we'd rather have a planet full of people standing (humanity would soon reach a point where their numbers would too big to have more than any space of land then the ones they occupy while standing) with no extra room as billions of people would be roaming the Earth since the beginning and not to mention dinosaurs, and all manner of extinct species including extinct homo species and animals, boy that would be a truly happy-perfect world, would't it? No death, just tons of [poop] and people, but we are happy to live with that forever than let any creature die. No, no, and what if someone wants to die, clearly he can't commit suicide, and he cant die as well, bored old people sitting and doing nothing, I mean what haste would you have to do things in life if you know you would already be here forever and ever. More so, all serial rapist and murderers would be on the street after a few hundred years, I mean no one can have them forever in prison if you cant die, we would have to make room for new criminals as well.

And when all of this is going south we might even get ourselves a new planet, you know for reasons very obvious. And I wonder how will we manage that? seeing with all our knowledge we have practically have give our selves the potential of taking us all back to the stone age in just 400 years, thanks to the atomic theory, how long will we manage a perfect world as our next one? only time will tell.

But you are right, God is clearly the guy to be blamed for all of this mess not us, I mean what if we invented guns and bombs, clearly God is the guy responsible since he made us in the first place and these chemicals, these laws of nature as well. We have seen the error of God's ways and we can conclude he is clearly not the guy to be be given a job for such a big thing as creation and its systems.

Well, Mag, I wish you could have a world like you imagined and try to live in it, seriously this poor-god-made-world, pathetic and crawling with problems and imperfections is clearly not the best place to live.

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?

Death is not evil, nothing wrong with physical death.

Suffering is bought about by sin, because we are fallen and made wrong choices we suffer.

Yes God could have made a perfect world, but we would be mindless servants, perusing nothing of our own desires.

[neo-x]

MAGSolo » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:50 am

neo-x wrote:
Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.


you know what, you are right, I mean look at the world around us, how flawed it us. Physics is flawed since it causes earthquakes, makes our planet go around and keeps it active. No one should have had teeth, especially animals since they kill for food and more so we do. No creation should have had the ability to reason or have proper brains. The sun burns because of the existence of chemical laws which when discovered were used to create fire and then a century ago or so the atomic power, clearly that has to go out too. Look at the water cycle and the earth geographical features which causes tremendous floods, how flawed! There should have been no death ever, we'd rather have a planet full of people standing (humanity would soon reach a point where their numbers would too big to have more than any space of land then the ones they occupy while standing) with no extra room as billions of people would be roaming the Earth since the beginning and not to mention dinosaurs, and all manner of extinct species including extinct homo species and animals, boy that would be a truly happy-perfect world, would't it? No death, just tons of [poop] and people, but we are happy to live with that forever than let any creature die. No, no, and what if someone wants to die, clearly he can't commit suicide, and he cant die as well, bored old people sitting and doing nothing, I mean what haste would you have to do things in life if you know you would already be here forever and ever. More so, all serial rapist and murderers would be on the street after a few hundred years, I mean no one can have them forever in prison if you cant die, we would have to make room for new criminals as well.

And when all of this is going south we might even get ourselves a new planet, you know for reasons very obvious. And I wonder how will we manage that? seeing with all our knowledge we have practically have give our selves the potential of taking us all back to the stone age in just 400 years, thanks to the atomic theory, how long will we manage a perfect world as our next one? only time will tell.

But you are right, God is clearly the guy to be blamed for all of this mess not us, I mean what if we invented guns and bombs, clearly God is the guy responsible since he made us in the first place and these chemicals, these laws of nature as well. We have seen the error of God's ways and we can conclude he is clearly not the guy to be be given a job for such a big thing as creation and its systems.

Well, Mag, I wish you could have a world like you imagined and try to live in it, seriously this poor-god-made-world, pathetic and crawling with problems and imperfections is clearly not the best place to live.

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?

Lol...this is what you are saying, I am simply elaborating on that.

[PaulSacramento]

Thanks.

We always have to ask ourselves, how much do we want God to intervene?
I mean, where do we draw the line?
Should God only intervene when death is on the line? what about adultery or homosexuality or S&M or Bondage? what about an abortion?
How should God intervene? Should he just "zap" the POTENTIAL sinner? ( remember that NO SIN or evil act has been commited yet)
Since God knows all, should he just prevent any potential sinner from being born?
Should he wipe out an entire race or group pf people because he knows ( and we don't of course) what they will do?
How would we judge God then?
Imagine God wiping out millions of Germans in 1932 so that the Nazi's would never have happened, what would people think since the Nazi attrocites would NEVER have been commited all that anyone would have know was that God wiped out millions of people for NO REASON that we know of.

God intervened when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira for claiming they had given all the money from a sold property to the church when they hadnt.

Where does it say God DIRECTLY killed them?

[PaulSacramento]

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?

Not capabale?
If God is GOD then yes, of course but IF God is GOD He can't go against His nature and His nature is one of love AND freedom.
And if ANY type of suffering is caused by freedom, then suffering WILL always be present where freedom exists.
It is NOT putting a "limitation" on God when God creates what IS and can't be any other way.
God making 1+1=2 and never being able to = 3 is NOT a limitation on God.

[MAGSolo]

MAGSolo » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:50 am

neo-x wrote:
Maybe God should have made us better. Maybe he should have made a world where earthquakes arent necessary and dont happen. Maybe if God is perfect then he should have made a perfect creation instead of a very flawed one.


you know what, you are right, I mean look at the world around us, how flawed it us. Physics is flawed since it causes earthquakes, makes our planet go around and keeps it active. No one should have had teeth, especially animals since they kill for food and more so we do. No creation should have had the ability to reason or have proper brains. The sun burns because of the existence of chemical laws which when discovered were used to create fire and then a century ago or so the atomic power, clearly that has to go out too. Look at the water cycle and the earth geographical features which causes tremendous floods, how flawed! There should have been no death ever, we'd rather have a planet full of people standing (humanity would soon reach a point where their numbers would too big to have more than any space of land then the ones they occupy while standing) with no extra room as billions of people would be roaming the Earth since the beginning and not to mention dinosaurs, and all manner of extinct species including extinct homo species and animals, boy that would be a truly happy-perfect world, would't it? No death, just tons of [poop] and people, but we are happy to live with that forever than let any creature die. No, no, and what if someone wants to die, clearly he can't commit suicide, and he cant die as well, bored old people sitting and doing nothing, I mean what haste would you have to do things in life if you know you would already be here forever and ever. More so, all serial rapist and murderers would be on the street after a few hundred years, I mean no one can have them forever in prison if you cant die, we would have to make room for new criminals as well.

And when all of this is going south we might even get ourselves a new planet, you know for reasons very obvious. And I wonder how will we manage that? seeing with all our knowledge we have practically have give our selves the potential of taking us all back to the stone age in just 400 years, thanks to the atomic theory, how long will we manage a perfect world as our next one? only time will tell.

But you are right, God is clearly the guy to be blamed for all of this mess not us, I mean what if we invented guns and bombs, clearly God is the guy responsible since he made us in the first place and these chemicals, these laws of nature as well. We have seen the error of God's ways and we can conclude he is clearly not the guy to be be given a job for such a big thing as creation and its systems.

Well, Mag, I wish you could have a world like you imagined and try to live in it, seriously this poor-god-made-world, pathetic and crawling with problems and imperfections is clearly not the best place to live.

So youre saying that God is not capable of making a world where death and suffering do not occur?

Lol...this is what you are saying, I am simply elaborating on that.

So youre saying that God is capable of making a world where suffering, death, and evil do not occur?

[MAGSolo]

Thanks.

We always have to ask ourselves, how much do we want God to intervene?
I mean, where do we draw the line?
Should God only intervene when death is on the line? what about adultery or homosexuality or S&M or Bondage? what about an abortion?
How should God intervene? Should he just "zap" the POTENTIAL sinner? ( remember that NO SIN or evil act has been commited yet)
Since God knows all, should he just prevent any potential sinner from being born?
Should he wipe out an entire race or group pf people because he knows ( and we don't of course) what they will do?
How would we judge God then?
Imagine God wiping out millions of Germans in 1932 so that the Nazi's would never have happened, what would people think since the Nazi attrocites would NEVER have been commited all that anyone would have know was that God wiped out millions of people for NO REASON that we know of.

God intervened when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira for claiming they had given all the money from a sold property to the church when they hadnt.

Where does it say God DIRECTLY killed them?

What does it matter? Wherent a bunch of you just arguing that God didnt directly kill Uzzah even though the bible said thats what happened? Werent people arguing that God didnt flood the entire planet and kill all life on Earth even though the Bible says thats what happened? Clearly the bible saying something doesnt hold much weight with you guys or else you pick and choose when it means what it says and when it means something different.

[Byblos]

So youre saying that God is capable of making a world where suffering, death, and evil do not occur?

And once again I ask, what do you think heaven is?

[MAGSolo]

I really dont know. What is it?

[neo-x]

neo-x » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:58 pm

God intervened when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira for claiming they had given all the money from a sold property to the church when they hadnt.


So you believe the event actually happened the way its described?

Again I ask Mag, do you believe that the event of Ananias and Sapphira actually happened, and is true?

[Byblos]

So youre saying that God is capable of making a world where suffering, death, and evil do not occur?

And once again I ask, what do you think heaven is?

I really dont know. What is it?

To quote your own words, how about

... a world where suffering, death, and evil do not occur

So I guess God is most certainly capable of creating such a world. The question is will you see it? Choose wisely my friend.

[PaulSacramento]

What does it matter? Wherent a bunch of you just arguing that God didnt directly kill Uzzah even though the bible said thats what happened? Werent people arguing that God didnt flood the entire planet and kill all life on Earth even though the Bible says thats what happened? Clearly the bible saying something doesnt hold much weight with you guys or else you pick and choose when it means what it says and when it means something different.

Fair enough.
Lets assume that the passage in which a person is killed after "blaspheming" against God, he/she is killed DIRECTLY By God and also, for discussion sake, lets assume that God did indeed wipe out the entire population on Earth with a flood.
Ok.
If we assume that, we also must assume that God is GOD,correct?
As such He is the creator and authour AND sustainer of Life and as such, GOD can choose what to do with ANY life what God wish too and since God is GOD and far beyond our ability to comprehend we can't obviously JUDGE anything that God does since we have NO idea why he does it.
Also, considering that God is the sustainer of all life and that death is NOT final but simply a transformation, then God's killing is merely a "change" of state for being that would NOT exist if NOT for God.
So...

[Byblos]

What does it matter? Wherent a bunch of you just arguing that God didnt directly kill Uzzah even though the bible said thats what happened? Werent people arguing that God didnt flood the entire planet and kill all life on Earth even though the Bible says thats what happened? Clearly the bible saying something doesnt hold much weight with you guys or else you pick and choose when it means what it says and when it means something different.

Fair enough.
Lets assume that the passage in which a person is killed after "blaspheming" against God, he/she is killed DIRECTLY By God and also, for discussion sake, lets assume that God did indeed wipe out the entire population on Earth with a flood.
Ok.
If we assume that, we also must assume that God is GOD,correct?
As such He is the creator and authour AND sustainer of Life and as such, GOD can choose what to do with ANY life what God wish too and since God is GOD and far beyond our ability to comprehend we can't obviously JUDGE anything that God does since we have NO idea why he does it.
Also, considering that God is the sustainer of all life and that death is NOT final but simply a transformation, then God's killing is merely a "change" of state for being that would NOT exist if NOT for God.
So...

Besides which, if one has an issue with such then it is upon them to prove beyond any doubt that those killed are not in fact better off than if they had been allowed to live. Go ahead Mag, I'll try not to hold my breath in anticipation.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
Besides which, if one has an issue with such then it is upon them to prove beyond any doubt that those killed are not in fact better off than if they had been allowed to live. Go ahead Mag, I'll try not to hold my breath in anticipation.

Byblos, couldn't this same argument be used for justification of abortion?

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
Besides which, if one has an issue with such then it is upon them to prove beyond any doubt that those killed are not in fact better off than if they had been allowed to live. Go ahead Mag, I'll try not to hold my breath in anticipation.

Byblos, couldn't this same argument be used for justification of abortion?

No because only God is omniscient. Other than God, no one knows who is better off dead and who isn't.