The Gospel and the Law

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:43 am

I just realised I'm going about this the wrong way. August, are we saved by Faith or the Works of the Law?

Probably neither, we are saved through the grace of God.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:44 am

Strix, with all due respect, read the entire thread before you comment.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:45 am

August wrote:
I just realised I'm going about this the wrong way. August, are we saved by Faith or the Works of the Law?
Probably neither, we are saved through the grace of God.

How is the grace obtained?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:49 am

Eph 2

8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Tell me, do works have any part in our salvation?

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:56 am

To be honest, I don't see what this has to do with the argument of OT validity.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:04 am

But since you asked:

James 2:14-26 (KJV)
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:10 am

Eph 2

8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Tell me, do works have any part in our salvation?

Once again, you stop reading too early:
Ephes. 2:8-10 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This passage says that we cannot be saved by works alone, but we also are not saved by faith alone, we have to do the works as commanded by God.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:33 am

August wrote:
Eph 2

8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Tell me, do works have any part in our salvation?
Once again, you stop reading too early:
Ephes. 2:8-10 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This passage says that we cannot be saved by works alone, but we also are not saved by faith alone, we have to do the works as commanded by God.

No, that's not what it says. Works are the result of faith but faith is what saves, not works. It says clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:34 am

August wrote:But since you asked:

James 2:14-26 (KJV)
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Read it again. It never says you need to do works to be SAVED.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:37 am

Oh, and what this has to do with the argument is that I think I've forgotten betrayed one of the main reason why I'm a Christian. As such, my stance regarding the OT and the NT is a bit different. I will still defend my stance on the death penalty though.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:14 am

Read it again. It never says you need to do works to be SAVED.

Salvation is not something that happens in an instant, and then you continue to be the same person you were before. I agree with you somewhat in that the actual instant of salvation is not brought about by works, but by grace. However, the story does not stop there. Once we have come to faith, we have a responsibility to God's will, and this is what the passage is about.

I honestly don't know how we can read the same thing and reach totally opposite understandings. This whole passage is about answering the questions you asked: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The answer clearly says:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Jesus implores those that are saved to obey His commandments, summarized in the two parts of love God and love your fellow man, and later repeated by Paul. Paul argued very strongly that salvation cannot come by the corrupted mechanism that the Pharisees were preaching, by keeping their version of Judaic ceremonial and civil law. He also repeated Jesus's teaching from the commandments, and this is also what James is repeating here. As a Christian, we have the obligation to uphold God's moral code, which has never changed, be it in the OT or NT, and is summarized in the commandments that Jesus repeated.

Oh, and what this has to do with the argument is that I think I've forgotten betrayed one of the main reason why I'm a Christian. As such, my stance regarding the OT and the NT is a bit different.

Please explain further, not sure I know what you mean.

I will still defend my stance on the death penalty though.

Ok, but that is a different argument. As I previously stated, I am not a staunch defender of the death penalty, although I don't believe it to be nonscriptural. On a personal level, I could never be the executioner.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:51 am

August wrote:This passage says that we cannot be saved by works alone, but we also are not saved by faith alone, we have to do the works as commanded by God.

This is incorrect. I'm concerned that you are advocating a "faith+works" doctrine August, and that is not Biblical. In particular, it might help to define salvation a little better. We are justified as an act of God, which occurs when we accept Jesus as saviour (when we believe). This is a single event, and secures for us eternal life. Sanctification is the process of becoming a righteous servant of God, and it is this process that requires works and a genuine seeking of God.

Please read Jac's post (about 5-6 down the page) that explains the problems with faith + works doctrine. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 59&start=0

Strix · Post by **Strix** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:18 am

August wrote:Strix, with all due respect, read the entire thread before you comment.

I have been, very painfully, reading through the entire thread...

Seriously, though, you seem like a very logical, well-versed individual. With all due respect, respond to the Scriptures:

In the only original post that I can see, you wrote:
"Firstly, there is no difference between OT law and NT law, it is the same law..."

You start with an apriorism. Peter chastises the Christians at Jerusalem for trying to add a burden that "neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" [Acts 15:10]. Galatians 5:2,3 says that circumcision (a work of the Law) is of no benefit to you under Christ, and that if you abide by one tenant of the Law, you are obligated to the whole [I'm assuming that you wear at least some blended material, and are probably not sacrificing animals in your backyard].

Hebrews 7:11,12 expressly says that if the Levitical priesthood [through whom the people received the Law] was perfect, then there was no need for Christ. Since there was a need for Christ, there was a change of law - "For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also." [vs. 12]. The law has changed; "there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness" [Heb. 7:18], and now we have hope [vs. 19]. Are some of the same principals inscribed in the New... you bet, but they are in the New, not the Old.

Exegeting Jeremiah 31:31, the Hebrew writer says "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete..." [Heb. 8:13].

Obsolete adj - No longer in use.

The Old Testament (Mosaical Law) and the New Testament are not the same law. We learn from the Old but we live by the New [Gal. 3:23,24].

Respectfully,

Strix · Post by **Strix** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:57 am

Felgar wrote:This is incorrect. I'm concerned that you are advocating a "faith+works" doctrine August, and that is not Biblical. In particular, it might help to define salvation a little better. We are justified as an act of God, which occurs when we accept Jesus as saviour (when we believe). This is a single event, and secures for us eternal life. Sanctification is the process of becoming a righteous servant of God, and it is this process that requires works and a genuine seeking of God.

Please read Jac's post (about 5-6 down the page) that explains the problems with faith + works doctrine. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 59&start=0

This "Gospel/Law" thread has transformed into a "Faith/Works" thread.

I have to side with August on this one... I read some of Jac's post in which he wrote:
"Here's the deal: the literal way to say it would be, "Once justified, always justified." You, I think, were seeing this when you said, "What about the sins I commit, following this?" When Jesus justified you of your sins, He justified you of ALL of your sins. He "declared you righteous."

This is not a Biblical view because he is confusing terms and not utilizing the whole of Scripture. What is alluded to is that there is no moral agent holding me to anything because I've already been justified past, present, and future. Not only does this not make sense, but it is expressly dealt with in Scripture [Rom. 6:1,2; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6 to name just a few].

This post could quickly become very long, so just a few Scriptures on works:
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth..."
Confession is a work.
:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved"
Calling on His name is a work. How do you call on His name?
Acts 22:16 "...Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."
Baptism is a work.

We would agree that these works do not earn us our salvation, because it is the free gift of God [Eph. 2:8-10] and we cannot boast about them. But they are a requirement, otherwise, why the admonishment to persevere [Rom. 8:25], to stand firm [Eph. 6:11], to be diligent [2 Tim. 2:15]... all of these things require work on our part so that we do not fall from grace.

Respectfully,

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:17 am

August wrote:
Salvation is not something that happens in an instant, and then you continue to be the same person you were before. I agree with you somewhat in that the actual instant of salvation is not brought about by works, but by grace. However, the story does not stop there. Once we have come to faith, we have a responsibility to God's will, and this is what the passage is about.

I honestly don't know how we can read the same thing and reach totally opposite understandings. This whole passage is about answering the questions you asked: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

It is similar to the question Jesus asked.

"Good? Why do you call me good? Good is only God in heaven."

An Arian will see that and say "Ha, Jesus is yelling at the guy for saying he's good and it proves he's not God!"

A trinitarian will say "Ha, Jesus does not deny being good and says only God is good thus proving Jesus is God!"

This is my favourite example of how two people can read the exact same thing and get completely opposite conclusions.

The answer clearly says:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Neither of which actually state you need works to be saved.

Jesus implores those that are saved to obey His commandments, summarized in the two parts of love God and love your fellow man, and later repeated by Paul. Paul argued very strongly that salvation cannot come by the corrupted mechanism that the Pharisees were preaching, by keeping their version of Judaic ceremonial and civil law. He also repeated Jesus's teaching from the commandments, and this is also what James is repeating here. As a Christian, we have the obligation to uphold God's moral code, which has never changed, be it in the OT or NT, and is summarized in the commandments that Jesus repeated.

The part that you are missing is that we require no law to do so. A saved Christian should be performing good works automatically regardless of whether they have memorised God's laws or not. I shall continue with the next paragraph as it relates to this.

Please explain further, not sure I know what you mean.

Christ promised to make us good by the grace of God if we have faith in Him. It's the exact equivalent of me telling you I can give you superpowers. You'd have to be either insane or right to make such a claim. Jesus made it and it worked.

Ok, but that is a different argument. As I previously stated, I am not a staunch defender of the death penalty, although I don't believe it to be nonscriptural. On a personal level, I could never be the executioner.

Fair enough.