Former skeptic shares glimpse of heaven

[Gman]

Interesting.....

"A self-described cynic, Dr. Mary Neal had her view on spirituality radically altered during a near-death experience on a kayaking trip on a remote Chilean river in 1999.

With her capsized kayak pinning her under the surging water, Neal was believed to have not been breathing for anything between 15 and 25 minutes, according to the kayaking guides with her on the trip. During the time of what she terms her “drowning,” she claims to have had a heavenly experience in which she returned to God and was in the presence of Jesus and angels."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/48242202/ ... AjGxKDld8F

[PaulSacramento]

Amazing story !
I don't think it will matter because:
For a believer, no miracle is needed and for an unbeliever, no miracle will be enough.

She was a former believer, so other skeptics will just say that it was an hallucination based on deep rooted subconcience memories and such...

[Swimmy]

But she wasn't religious. I don't know what that means. I guess that she didn't exactly follow Christianity. So how did she get into heaven then?

[Beanybag]

Lots of things bother me about this. How does she have memories about it if it was something nonphysical and separate from her body? Also, this is nothing new to near-death experiences, and if these were proof of anything, they'd be proof for every religion. Another thing that happens at death and at near-death experiences is a releasing of DMT, and extremely potent hallucinogen that can make a few minutes feel like a few years (or so I've heard). One interesting thing about DMT is it's released from the pinneal gland, which is where Decartes said the soul interacted with the brain /trivia. Also, how does she go to heaven and then come back. Why would she go to heaven before her time? Things like this just don't add up for me.

[RickD]

B.W., where are you? We need you here.

[Gman]

Lots of things bother me about this. How does she have memories about it if it was something nonphysical and separate from her body? Also, this is nothing new to near-death experiences, and if these were proof of anything, they'd be proof for every religion. Another thing that happens at death and at near-death experiences is a releasing of DMT, and extremely potent hallucinogen that can make a few minutes feel like a few years (or so I've heard). One interesting thing about DMT is it's released from the pinneal gland, which is where Decartes said the soul interacted with the brain /trivia. Also, how does she go to heaven and then come back. Why would she go to heaven before her time? Things like this just don't add up for me.

Well if you believe that all there is is chemicals in this world, then this is the only answer you will ever get.. It's all chemicals...

For a believer, no miracle is needed and for an unbeliever, no miracle will be enough.

Very true... Although it is interesting, I wouldn't hang my hat on this or even the Shroud of Turin.. The real transformation or believing I see comes with the transforming of the heart. Focusing on G-d with a purity of heart.

[jlay]

Lots of things bother me about this. How does she have memories about it if it was something nonphysical and separate from her body? Also, this is nothing new to near-death experiences, and if these were proof of anything, they'd be proof for every religion. Another thing that happens at death and at near-death experiences is a releasing of DMT, and extremely potent hallucinogen that can make a few minutes feel like a few years (or so I've heard). One interesting thing about DMT is it's released from the pinneal gland, which is where Decartes said the soul interacted with the brain /trivia. Also, how does she go to heaven and then come back. Why would she go to heaven before her time? Things like this just don't add up for me.

I take these experiences with a grain of salt. But, let's just forget the specific event, and deal with your question.
You admit that your memories are nonphysical. I agree. So, right now, what you are reading, is it physical? Yet it came from something non-physical, that being my thoughts. And they were transmitted to you. So, even if I died before you read them, they would still exist, no? I can transmit libraries of non-material data through invisible radio waves. This data can travel thousands of miles to a receiver where it can be stored or read. And this memory thing is problem, why?

[Pierson5]

Lots of things bother me about this. How does she have memories about it if it was something nonphysical and separate from her body? Also, this is nothing new to near-death experiences, and if these were proof of anything, they'd be proof for every religion. Another thing that happens at death and at near-death experiences is a releasing of DMT, and extremely potent hallucinogen that can make a few minutes feel like a few years (or so I've heard). One interesting thing about DMT is it's released from the pinneal gland, which is where Decartes said the soul interacted with the brain /trivia. Also, how does she go to heaven and then come back. Why would she go to heaven before her time? Things like this just don't add up for me.

Well if you believe that all there is is chemicals in this world, then this is the only answer you will ever get.. It's all chemicals...

For a believer, no miracle is needed and for an unbeliever, no miracle will be enough.

Very true... Although it is interesting, I wouldn't hang my hat on this or even the Shroud of Turin.. The real transformation or believing I see comes with the transforming of the heart. Focusing on G-d with a purity of heart.

Couldn't have said it better Beanybag. If an individual had one of these out of body experiences and claimed they saw Muhammad (being a Muslim), I don't think any of you would classify that as evidence for the Islamic religion. It appears these experiences may be due to brain states triggered by cardiac arrest and anesthesia. There are plenty of things that trigger these types of experiences (e.g. fighter pilots, drug usage, etc..):

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html

http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56/

Conclusions

Higher concentrations of CO2 proved significant, and higher serum levels of K might be important in the provoking of NDEs. Since these associations have not been reported before, our study adds novel information to the field of NDEs phenomena.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 866095.htm

He stimulated, with electricity, a part of the brain called the left angular gyrus. Patients immediately reported the impression of a shadowy person lurking behind them. And when he stimulated the right angular gyrus, they reported that they left their physical body and could look down on it from above — the classic out-of-body experience.

At some stage in the future, we might know enough about the brain to fully understand the NDE. But right now, we know that you don't have to be dying to have one, and that it neither proves nor disproves the existence of an afterlife.

[Beanybag]

Lots of things bother me about this. How does she have memories about it if it was something nonphysical and separate from her body? Also, this is nothing new to near-death experiences, and if these were proof of anything, they'd be proof for every religion. Another thing that happens at death and at near-death experiences is a releasing of DMT, and extremely potent hallucinogen that can make a few minutes feel like a few years (or so I've heard). One interesting thing about DMT is it's released from the pinneal gland, which is where Decartes said the soul interacted with the brain /trivia. Also, how does she go to heaven and then come back. Why would she go to heaven before her time? Things like this just don't add up for me.

I take these experiences with a grain of salt. But, let's just forget the specific event, and deal with your question.
You admit that your memories are nonphysical. I agree. So, right now, what you are reading, is it physical? Yet it came from something non-physical, that being my thoughts. And they were transmitted to you. So, even if I died before you read them, they would still exist, no? I can transmit libraries of non-material data through invisible radio waves. This data can travel thousands of miles to a receiver where it can be stored or read. And this memory thing is problem, why?

I don't think my memories are nonphysical, I think they are partly physical. I think knowledge is most typically in the form, at least partly, of information, and information is necessarily physical. There appears to be a nonphysical aspect associated with knowledge, however, or at least an aspect that is impossible to deduce with just information. As far as I can tell, all memories have at least a physical component. How then does a person come back from heaven and provide memories of a nonphysical realm? Not to mention, she states she 'saw' things, which implies a physical component (light) and would seem incompatible with a completely nonphysical realm.

[Gman]

Couldn't have said it better Beanybag. If an individual had one of these out of body experiences and claimed they saw Muhammad (being a Muslim), I don't think any of you would classify that as evidence for the Islamic religion. It appears these experiences may be due to brain states triggered by cardiac arrest and anesthesia. There are plenty of things that trigger these types of experiences (e.g. fighter pilots, drug usage, etc..):

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html

How did he know? Did muhammed have a name tag on him? But yes, I've heard of people claiming to see their gods in NDE also. The thing here is however is that satan can also parade as an angel of light or another spiritual form as well 2 Corinthians 11:14, Ezekiel 28:12-18. That's why I usually question such experiences.

At some stage in the future, we might know enough about the brain to fully understand the NDE. But right now, we know that you don't have to be dying to have one, and that it neither proves nor disproves the existence of an afterlife.

I think the unique thing here about her experience was that it was prophetic with her son dieing and all. But sure, it's still just speculation.. A mystery.

[Swimmy]

He stimulated, with electricity, a part of the brain called the left angular gyrus. Patients immediately reported the impression of a shadowy person lurking behind them. And when he stimulated the right angular gyrus, they reported that they left their physical body and could look down on it from above — the classic out-of-body experience.

At some stage in the future, we might know enough about the brain to fully understand the NDE. But right now, we know that you don't have to be dying to have one, and that it neither proves nor disproves the existence of an afterlife.

Is he trying to debunk NDE's as natural phenomenon that solely relies on the brain? Cause I would question how the brain can cause one to float out of their body and look down it. Not to mention seeing objects out of view. IF anything it verifies a supernatural event and that one does not require the brain or body to exist.

[Beanybag]

He stimulated, with electricity, a part of the brain called the left angular gyrus. Patients immediately reported the impression of a shadowy person lurking behind them. And when he stimulated the right angular gyrus, they reported that they left their physical body and could look down on it from above — the classic out-of-body experience.

At some stage in the future, we might know enough about the brain to fully understand the NDE. But right now, we know that you don't have to be dying to have one, and that it neither proves nor disproves the existence of an afterlife.

Is he trying to debunk NDE's as natural phenomenon that solely relies on the brain? Cause I would question how the brain can cause one to float out of their body and look down it. Not to mention seeing objects out of view. IF anything it verifies a supernatural event and that one does not require the brain or body to exist.

Do you think that one's perceptions always accurately reflect reality?

[Swimmy]

He stimulated, with electricity, a part of the brain called the left angular gyrus. Patients immediately reported the impression of a shadowy person lurking behind them. And when he stimulated the right angular gyrus, they reported that they left their physical body and could look down on it from above — the classic out-of-body experience.

At some stage in the future, we might know enough about the brain to fully understand the NDE. But right now, we know that you don't have to be dying to have one, and that it neither proves nor disproves the existence of an afterlife.

Is he trying to debunk NDE's as natural phenomenon that solely relies on the brain? Cause I would question how the brain can cause one to float out of their body and look down it. Not to mention seeing objects out of view. IF anything it verifies a supernatural event and that one does not require the brain or body to exist.

Do you think that one's perceptions always accurately reflect reality?

I would assume my perception is limited by my mind and body. The fact that one can perceive outside of their body and see unseen objects out of sight goes against the limitations of the physical body.

[B. W.]

B.W., where are you? We need you here.

Baby sitting duties prevailed upon me and my wife today...

... they wear you out!

[Beanybag]

I would assume my perception is limited by my mind and body. The fact that one can perceive outside of their body and see unseen objects out of sight goes against the limitations of the physical body.

That's interesting. So, any time anyone has a perceptual experience that seems impossible to have had due to bodily limitations or unseen objects, it can be said to be an accurate perception of reality?