How do you read John 1:1?

[1stjohn0666]

Do you in your mind when reading this text say "In the beginning was the son, and the son was with the Father, and the son was the Father"
I replaced "word" with son, because some think that Jesus is the "word" in the text. I replaced "God" with the Father as some say the Father is God. (and some say Jesus is God also) what is your rendering?

[neo-x]

"In the beginning was the son, and the son was with the Father, and the son was the Father"

I'd say close to this..."In the beginning was the son, and the son was with God, and the son was God".

the articles in the sentence matter though, it would be a poor rendering of the scripture without you examining the proper Greek grammar, you should look into that.

[1stjohn0666]

I don't want "suggestions for me" I want to know how you read it, with no argument involved. I am going to be the learner.

[jlay]

With a grammatico-historical method.

The word, 'Word' in the Greek is Logos. In my mind I read it this way, and let the text be the text. Then the text reveals that the Word was also the light of men (John 1:4). The light came into the world but the world knew Him not. (v.10) And then in v.14 the text reveals that the Logos became flesh and dwelled among us. It says that John bore witness of Him (v.15) and revealed Him as Jesus Christ. (v.17)

The Word is Jesus Christ. The Word is with God and is God.
He came into the world. Do you know Him as such or not? He came that you would believe, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

[B. W.]

Please look up these links, they will help answer you.

It is a good thing to look into the original languages...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ah#p122119

Also, Manaoh’s wife and Manoah encounter one who was identified as A Man of God in Judges 13:6. This being is was also called the Malek YHWH in Judges 13:3. This was no angelic being because later in Judges 13 these things happened: Judges 13:13, 16, 17, 18 (Isaiah 9:6c) Judges 13:19, 20, 22, 23 identifies as YHWH not an angelic being.

These experiences and types of encounters connect to John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 14. Note the Hebrew Word translated angel is the word Malek which simply means messenger, word bearer, task doer… and is not limited to only refer to angels. It can also refer to God himself, the preincarnate Christ, Jesus Christ of the Divine Trinity of the Godhead, known as the Word who delighted in the life of humanity.

This delight was recorded in the OT in encounters with people such as Manoah, Abraham, Moses, to name a few. This person would come as a man, uniting people back to himself and thus became a Son to Man to reconcile us who believe and sealed by the Holy Spirit to become adopted son’s to God…

Those phrases under discussion here refer to the work of Christ and serves to identify him thru use of normal reasoning processes (Isaiah 1:18c)…

Post 11

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=trinity

Post 11 goes along with the above post 10 ““ please review before looking at the example of how haElohim was used in Judges 13 account of the birth of Sampson

We will look at the use of haElohim in Judges 13 and here is a review of haElohim. Ha "is Hebrew word form attached to a word that expresses - ALL THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. For Example: haElohim means - God in all his entirety. This word expresses the totality of God. Also when this word is used in context of false gods it reads in the bible as all the gods. In other words there is an “˜all”â„¢ associated with this word when prefixed with plurals.

I will place the phrase “the Godhead ”next to haElohim to help capture the depth of meaning of haElohim a bit better:

Judges 13:6-22. “Then the woman came and told her husband, "A man of God (haElohim ““ the Godhead) came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel (Malek-messenger) of God (haElohim - the Godhead), very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, 7 but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God (Elohim ““ plural noun) from the womb to the day of his death.'"

“8 Then Manoah prayed to the LORD (Yahweh) and said, "O Lord (Yahweh), please let the man of God (haElohim” the Godhead) whom you sent come again to us and teach us what we are to do with the child who will be born.." 9 And God (haElohim”“ the Godhead) listened to the voice of Manoah, and the angel (Malek -messenger) of God (haElohim” -“ the Godhead) came again to the woman as she sat in the field. But Manoah her husband was not with her.

“10 So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, "Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me." 11 And Manoah arose and went after his wife and came to the man and said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to this woman?" And he said, "I am."

“12 And Manoah said, "Now when your words come true, what is to be the child's manner of life, and what is his mission?" 13 And the angel (Malek-Messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing. All that I commanded her let her observe."

“15 Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." 16 And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to (Yahweh) the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD.

“17 And Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?"

“18 And the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"

[Note: The word translated wonderful means - incomprehensible, extraordinary, as well as wonderful: vs 18 reads - "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful (incomprehensible, extraordinary)?"

Question: who alone is incomprehensible?]

“19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it on the rock to (Yahweh) the LORD, to the one who works wonders, and Manoah and his wife were watching. 20 And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD went up in the flame of the altar. Now Manoah and his wife were watching, and they fell on their faces to the ground.

“21 The angel (Malek-messenger Yahweh) the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel (Malek- messenger Yahweh) {or better translated as - Malek Yahweh} - "Then Manoah knew that he was the Malek Yahweh."

“22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God (Elohim Plural noun)."

Manoah and his wife saw God and not an angelic being. Then notice what Manoah's wife called the Malek ““ Yahweh!

Judges 13:23, “But his wife said to him, "If (Yahweh) the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these."

Notice that the Malek Yahweh appeared like a man and that John 1:1, 4 states what? In Isaiah 9:6 what incomprehensible event would cause someone to be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? What did the Malek of haElohim (Messenger of the Godhead) say about his name?

John 1:4, “In him was life, and the life was the light of men.”

Isa 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (EL), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Now look at these bible passages where and how HaElohim is used:

Deu 4:35. “To you it was shown, that you might know that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim -implying the Godhead Trinity); there is no other besides him.”

Deu 4:39, “know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the (Yahweh) LORD is God (haElohim) in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.”

Deu 7:9, “Know therefore that Yahweh (the LORD) your Elohim (God ““ plural noun) is haElohim (God - plural noun implying The Godhead Trinity), the faithful El (God - singular noun - one God) who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations”¦”

Gen 5:22, 24, "Enoch walked with God (haElohim) after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters”¦ 24 and Enoch walked with God (haElohim): and he was not; for God (Elohim) took him."

[neo-x]

1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:13 pm

I don't want "suggestions for me" I want to know how you read it, with no argument involved. I am going to be the learn

Why not, I'm only saying this out of necessity rather than casual information sharing. It is vital that you see the text as it is in the original tongues for that would make out the best rendition possible.

[PaulSacramento]

I read it as:
Jesus is the word of God and was with God from the beginning and Jesus was the same as God.
It is a comment on Jesus' divine nature and status and timelessness.