Believe Out Loud: Gay/lesbian christian community

[neo-x]

So, i was on facebook the other day and saw this, your thoughts would be welcome.
http://www.facebook.com/believeoutloud?ref=stream

[RickD]

I dare someone here, who has a facebook account, to post a NAMBLA sign, and a statement about love and tolerance. I bet you'll get a lot of positive reaction there.

[neo-x]

hmmm, 12 view, one reply, well no one has anything to share on the topic???

I dare someone here, who has a facebook account, to post a NAMBLA sign, and a statement about love and tolerance. I bet you'll get a lot of positive reaction there.

I hear ya Rick.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that, because of the abuse on the gay community in the past, there is now a "fall out" of tolerance and accepteance because of it.
Guilt is a very strong motivator.
I also think that people that want to express love and compassion for gays, even though they may disagree with the lifestyle, will just express that love and keep the "disagreement" to themselves.
Fear of backlash perhaps and also a "better to share love then share hate" mentality.

[RickD]

Neo, I think that site shows some people walking that fine line between showing Christian love for all people, and conforming to what the world sees as right, and moral. No matter how much one just wants to see the issue as an issue of love between two consenting adults, it's much more than that. God has called the act of homosexual sex, an abomination. So, as one part of me has sympathy for people who just want to be able to love who they want, another part of me says, that God is calling this act an abomination, and I don't dismiss that. (besides the fact that I get physically disgusted, when I see two men kissing).

[PaulSacramento]

Neo, I think that site shows some people walking that fine line between showing Christian love for all people, and conforming to what the world sees as right, and moral. No matter how much one just wants to see the issue as an issue of love between two consenting adults, it's much more than that. God has called the act of homosexual sex, an abomination. So, as one part of me has sympathy for people who just want to be able to love who they want, another part of me says, that God is calling this act an abomination, and I don't dismiss that. (besides the fact that I get physically disgusted, when I see two men kissing).

There are a lot of things that were called an abomination, that isn't really the point and using terms like that just brings up negative emotions.
It's far simpler and less offensive, IMO, to simply state that, as christians we love all of God's creation but we can't agree with what is viewed as unnatural and a deviation from the normal order or human nature as we understand it.
It's not about the people, but the activties they choose to indulge in.

[RickD]

Neo, I think that site shows some people walking that fine line between showing Christian love for all people, and conforming to what the world sees as right, and moral. No matter how much one just wants to see the issue as an issue of love between two consenting adults, it's much more than that. God has called the act of homosexual sex, an abomination. So, as one part of me has sympathy for people who just want to be able to love who they want, another part of me says, that God is calling this act an abomination, and I don't dismiss that. (besides the fact that I get physically disgusted, when I see two men kissing).

There are a lot of things that were called an abomination, that isn't really the point and using terms like that just brings up negative emotions.
It's far simpler and less offensive, IMO, to simply state that, as christians we love all of God's creation but we can't agree with what is viewed as unnatural and a deviation from the normal order or human nature as we understand it.
It's not about the people, but the activties they choose to indulge in.

Paul, I also see the argument that it's unnatural. But how would you expect an atheist to change his mind if you argue that it's unnatural, any more than he would change his mind, that HS sex is an abomination? I've heard the argument that HS sex is natural, because animals in nature engage in HS sex. And, people are nothing more than more advanced animals. Sugar coating what God calls an abomination, just so someone won't be offended, or feel "negative emotions", isn't really what we should do, is it? Again, maybe we as Christians should just preach universalism, and pretend eternal separation from God is just a lie, so we won't cause any negative emotions. People may go to hell, but at least their emotions will be positive, until they get there.

[Jac3510]

Sugar coating what God calls an abomination, just so someone won't be offended, or feel "negative emotions", isn't really what we should do, is it? Again, maybe we as Christians should just preach universalism, and pretend eternal separation from God is just a lie, so we won't cause any negative emotions.

The difference, of course, is that universalism is false, and saying that homosexuality is unnatural is not. When people appeal to what happens in nature, we can explain to them that they have misunderstood the term "natural."

Jesus said to be wise as serpents even as we are gentle as doves. Paul says we should persuade men. Solomon says a kind word turns away wrath. And my grandmother says you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Pick your authority. The point should be obvious. If we don't have to offend people when we tell the Truth, then why should we? Put differently, if we can make a case for Christian morality using more offensive terms and the case using less offensive terms, shouldn't we make the case using less offensive terms?

It may give us a good feeling to vent our frustrations and call things abominations. Yeah, baby! Let it out. But ask yourself if you aren't doing that more for yourself than for the person you are speaking to. Remember that when Moses called HS an abomination, he was talking to believers. Keep that kind of language in the church and the Bible study. If someone asks, don't lie about it. If an unbeliever says, "But doesn't your Bible call homosexuality an abomination? Isn't that intolerant?" then have the conversation. But to just come out with guns 'a blazin' using that kind of language is unpersuasive, inappropriate, and does no one any good.

Besides, why would you expect a non-Christian to abide by Christian ethics, particularly as enumerated and detailed by Christian Scripture? If someone wants to know your personal morality, then fine, share Scripture. If they want to know why they ought to adopt your moral views (and they aren't Christian), appealing to Scripture is useless. Meet them where they are. Use general revelation (thus, Rom. 2:14-17). All that's even more true if you are trying to make an apologetic for Christianity--that is, that Christian morality is superior, and therefore we should be Christian. If you try to use Scripture to prove that Christian morality is superior in that case, then you are just using a circular argument.

So all in all, Paul is correct. I'm not denying that homosexuality is an abomination. I am denying that it is good practice to make that case and use that term to non-believers. Use teleological arguments (bad for the body/mind) or ontological arguments (it is unnatural). You'll find much more success, and you'll do the Christian cause good in general in the mind of the public, since you will be just one more witness of Christians who have a genuine case about why they believe what they do that can be differentiated from why the Muslims believe what they do (i.e., my holy book says so!).

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I dare someone here, who has a facebook account, to post a NAMBLA sign, and a statement about love and tolerance. I bet you'll get a lot of positive reaction there.

The atheists who post here would be willing to have a whole slew of ''alternative lifestyle'' people be Boy Scout volunteers, but they don't extend the same courtesy to pedophiles. Hypocrites, that's what they are. Shameless hypocrites.

FL

[Ivellious]

Pedophilia is a felony crime in America. That's why no one believes they should be allowed to volunteer for Boy Scout events or other child-based activities, FL. Just because your own twisted sense of gay people believes that pedophilia and homosexuality are the same thing doesn't mean that it is.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Pedophilia is a felony crime in America. That's why no one believes they should be allowed to volunteer for Boy Scout events or other child-based activities, FL. Just because your own twisted sense of gay people believes that pedophilia and homosexuality are the same thing doesn't mean that it is.

Give it some time, Ivellious, give it some time! A few more years, a more relaxed electorate, a greater live-and-let-live philosophy will make pedophelia OK...again. Look at the very recent past and see that most activities formerly called perversions are now just alternative lifestyles. They have become acceptable, the norm.

Get rid of your moral outrage against pedophiles, Ivellious. It smells of hypocrisy.

FL

[RickD]

Sugar coating what God calls an abomination, just so someone won't be offended, or feel "negative emotions", isn't really what we should do, is it? Again, maybe we as Christians should just preach universalism, and pretend eternal separation from God is just a lie, so we won't cause any negative emotions.

The difference, of course, is that universalism is false, and saying that homosexuality is unnatural is not. When people appeal to what happens in nature, we can explain to them that they have misunderstood the term "natural."

Jesus said to be wise as serpents even as we are gentle as doves. Paul says we should persuade men. Solomon says a kind word turns away wrath. And my grandmother says you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Pick your authority. The point should be obvious. If we don't have to offend people when we tell the Truth, then why should we? Put differently, if we can make a case for Christian morality using more offensive terms and the case using less offensive terms, shouldn't we make the case using less offensive terms?

It may give us a good feeling to vent our frustrations and call things abominations. Yeah, baby! Let it out. But ask yourself if you aren't doing that more for yourself than for the person you are speaking to. Remember that when Moses called HS an abomination, he was talking to believers. Keep that kind of language in the church and the Bible study. If someone asks, don't lie about it. If an unbeliever says, "But doesn't your Bible call homosexuality an abomination? Isn't that intolerant?" then have the conversation. But to just come out with guns 'a blazin' using that kind of language is unpersuasive, inappropriate, and does no one any good.

Besides, why would you expect a non-Christian to abide by Christian ethics, particularly as enumerated and detailed by Christian Scripture? If someone wants to know your personal morality, then fine, share Scripture. If they want to know why they ought to adopt your moral views (and they aren't Christian), appealing to Scripture is useless. Meet them where they are. Use general revelation (thus, Rom. 2:14-17). All that's even more true if you are trying to make an apologetic for Christianity--that is, that Christian morality is superior, and therefore we should be Christian. If you try to use Scripture to prove that Christian morality is superior in that case, then you are just using a circular argument.

So all in all, Paul is correct. I'm not denying that homosexuality is an abomination. I am denying that it is good practice to make that case and use that term to non-believers. Use teleological arguments (bad for the body/mind) or ontological arguments (it is unnatural). You'll find much more success, and you'll do the Christian cause good in general in the mind of the public, since you will be just one more witness of Christians who have a genuine case about why they believe what they do that can be differentiated from why the Muslims believe what they do (i.e., my holy book says so!).

Jac, and Paul, I'm sorry. My post was kinda meant to be tongue in cheek. I would never even use the term "abomination" when talking to an unbeliever. So, again I'm sorry I caused the confusion. After reading your post Jac, and seeing that I agree with everything you said, I realized that you didn't see My post wasn't serious.

Back to normally scheduled programming.

[Jac3510]

Haha, sorry Rick. My silly detector didn't go off. I usually catch such things. Sorry!

[RickD]

Haha, sorry Rick. My silly detector didn't go off. I usually catch such things. Sorry!

[La Volpe]

I'm fine with gay people wanting to worship Christ but I have a problem when they tell try to say that what their doing isn't a sin, and I feel like that's what this group is trying to do.