Answers for B.W.

[B. W.]

I did not post any "trinity theory"... "one in purpose" is not "Jesus is God" Jesus lacks a Godly trait omniscience. Jesus is and will forever be "subject" to his Father and to his God which the Father is the "only true God" John 17:3

Again please read post 7-12 from the following thread - Post 11 metioned below.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 1&start=15

John666, Who is Jesus to you and what did he accomplish?

Post 11

Post 11 goes along with the above post 10 “ please review before looking at the example of how haElohim was used in Judges 13 account of the birth of Sampson

We will look at the use of haElohim in Judges 13 and here is a review of haElohim. Ha “ is Hebrew word form attached to a word that expresses “ ALL THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. For Example: haElohim means - God in all his entirety. This word expresses the totality of God. Also when this word is used in context of false gods it reads in the bible as all the gods. In other words there is an allâ„¢ associated with this word when prefixed with plurals.

I will place the phrase the Godhead next to haElohim to help capture the depth of meaning of haElohim a bit better:

Judges 13:6-22. Then the woman came and told her husband, "A man of God (haElohim “ the Godhead) came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel (Malek-messenger) of God (haElohim - the Godhead), very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, 7 but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God (Elohim “ plural noun) from the womb to the day of his death.'"

8 Then Manoah prayed to the LORD (Yahweh) and said, "O Lord (Yahweh), please let the man of God (haElohim“ the Godhead) whom you sent come again to us and teach us what we are to do with the child who will be born.." 9 And God (haElohim“ the Godhead) listened to the voice of Manoah, and the angel (Malek -messenger) of God (haElohim“ the Godhead) came again to the woman as she sat in the field. But Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, "Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me." 11 And Manoah arose and went after his wife and came to the man and said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to this woman?" And he said, "I am."

12 And Manoah said, "Now when your words come true, what is to be the child's manner of life, and what is his mission?" 13 And the angel (Malek-Messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing. All that I commanded her let her observe."

15 Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." 16 And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to (Yahweh) the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD.

17 And Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?"

18 And the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"

[Note: The word translated wonderful means - incomprehensible, extraordinary, as well as wonderful: vs 18 reads - "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful (incomprehensible, extraordinary)?"

Question: who alone is incomprehensible?]

19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it on the rock to (Yahweh) the LORD, to the one who works wonders, and Manoah and his wife were watching. 20 And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD went up in the flame of the altar. Now Manoah and his wife were watching, and they fell on their faces to the ground.

21 The angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel (Malek- messenger) of (Yahweh) {or better translated as - Malek Yahweh} - "Then Manoah knew that he was the Malek Yahweh."

22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God (Elohim Plural noun)."

Manoah and his wife saw God and not an angelic being. Then notice what Manoah's wife called the Malek “ Yahweh!

Judges 13:23, But his wife said to him, "If (Yahweh) the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these."

Notice that the Malek Yahweh appeared like a man and that John 1:4 states what? In Isaiah 9:6 what incomprehensible event would cause someone to be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? What did the Malek of haElohim (Messenger of the Godhead) say about his name?

John 1:4, In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Isa 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (EL), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Now look at these bible passages where and how HaElohim is used:

Deut 4:35. To you it was shown, that you might know that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim -implying the Godhead Trinity); there is no other besides him.

Deut 4:39, know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the (Yahweh) LORD is God (haElohim) in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deut 7:9, Know therefore that Yahweh (the LORD) your Elohim (God “ plural noun) is haElohim (God - plural noun implying The Godhead Trinity), the faithful El (God - singular noun - one God) who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations

Gen 5:22, 24, "Enoch walked with God (haElohim) after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters 24 and Enoch walked with God (haElohim): and he was not; for God (Elohim) took him."
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[B. W.]

Let me make it simple for you john666 – I simply applied the rules of grammar to the text of Judges 13:6-22. In the phrase The Malak of the LORD, of the, is implied by translators. Now an all caps LORD is the name YHWH. In the text the ‘of the’ is implied by translators and these are not there.

I removed the ‘of the’ and applied the proper names in the below translation. Also please note, Malek is the Hebrew word for messenger, a task doer, and it can apply to men, angelic beings, and yes, even God himself. When he context and grammar/syntax lack a ‘Of’ between Malek and LORD (Yahweh) it identifies someone as Yahweh.

The Ha attached to Elohim that spells haElohim, when referring to God, means all of God in his purest essence i.e. the Godhead in the NT. When haelohim is used to denote false gods it is translated as ‘all the gods.’ Judges 13 usage of haElohim applies to God in his entire majestic plural form.

Judges 13:6-22, Then the woman came and told her husband, "A man of haElohim came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the Malek-messenger of the haElohim, very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, 7 but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to Elohim from the womb to the day of his death.'"

8 Then Manoah prayed to Yahweh and said, "O Yahweh, please let the man of haElohim whom you sent come again to us and teach us what we are to do with the child who will be born."
9 And haElohim listened to the voice of Manoah, and the Malek/messenger haElohim came again to the woman as she sat in the field. But Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, "Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me." 11 And Manoah arose and went after his wife and came to the man and said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to this woman?" And he said, "I am."

Notice the phrase I AM and then please note these verses Exodus 4:14, and John 8:24, 28, 58, 59…

12 And Manoah said, "Now when your words come true, what is to be the child's manner of life, and what is his mission?" 13 And the Malek-Messenger Yahweh said to Manoah," Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing. All that I commanded her let her observe."

15 Manoah said to the Malek-messenger Yahweh, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." 16 And the Malek Yahweh said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to Yahweh." (For Manoah did not know that he was the Malek-messenger Yahweh.

17 And Manoah said to the Malek-messenger Yahweh, "What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?"

18 And the Malek-messenger Yahweh said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"

[Note: The word translated wonderful means - incomprehensible, extraordinary, as well as wonderful: vs 18 reads - "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful (incomprehensible, extraordinary)?"

Question: who alone is incomprehensible?]

19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it on the rock to Yahweh), to the one who works wonders, and Manoah and his wife were watching.

20 And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the Malek-messenger Yahweh the went up in the flame of the altar. Now Manoah and his wife were watching, and they fell on their faces to the ground.

21 The Malek-messenger Yahweh appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the Malek- messenger Yahweh."

22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen Elohim."

Please Note: Manoah and his wife saw God and not an angelic being. Then notice what Manoah's wife called the Malek - Elohin (Majestic Plural noun i.e. Majestic Plural One) not an angelic being! Also angels would not accept the honor due God, nor claim to be God as Revelation 22:8, 9 points out.

Judges 13:23, But his wife said to him, "If Yahweh had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these."

Notice that the Malek Yahweh appeared like a man and that John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14c states what?

[1stjohn0666]

Elohim is a "plural noun" but I challenge you to find in any lexicon where Elohim is a "complex noun" i.e. 3 in 1 ... There is NO lexicon that defines Elohim as a "complex noun"

[B. W.]

Elohim is a "plural noun" but I challenge you to find in any lexicon where Elohim is a "complex noun" i.e. 3 in 1 ... There is NO lexicon that defines Elohim as a "complex noun"

Elohim is technically a plural of delegation, a type of plural collective noun.

The questions still stand, John666...

Who is Jesus to you and what did he accomplish?

Please answer these two questions...
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[1stjohn0666]

Jesus is the son of the living God.. Peter affirms my correct answer. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah.

[B. W.]

Jesus is the son of the living God.. Peter affirms my correct answer. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah.

That only answers the frist question now can you answer the next:

What did Jesus accomplish?
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[1stjohn0666]

You ask "what did Jesus accomplish" and my answer is ...Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah. I think you might be bright enough to know what the role of Messiah is.

[B. W.]

You ask "what did Jesus accomplish" and my answer is ...Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah. I think you might be bright enough to know what the role of Messiah is.

This tells me nothing of what YOU know. I am asking YOU, personally, what you think Jesus specifically accomplished as Messiah…

So please be kind enough to provide a list or a brief statement on what you think Jesus specifically accomplished as Messiah.

The reason for this is one, establish common ground in which start actually discussing a matter rationally. If no one knows where you are coming from, what you believe, there is no point to continue. Talking in circles does no side any good.

Therefore, what did Jesus specifically accomplished as Messiah…and please be kind enough to provide a list or a brief statement on what you think Jesus specifically accomplished as Messiah.
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[1stjohn0666]

I could list many things that Jesus accomplished, and even Jesus asking for rewards for what he did from his Father. One thing he accomplished is that he became the sacrifice (without spot) .. so that we can have eternal life.

[B. W.]

I asked you, who is Jesus to you and you answered:

Jesus is the son of the living God.. Peter affirms my correct answer. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah.

Next, I ask what did Jesus accomplish and you wrote:

I could list many things that Jesus accomplished, and even Jesus asking for rewards for what he did from his Father. One thing he accomplished is that he became the sacrifice (without spot) .. so that we can have eternal life.

Can you define what you personally mean by without spot?
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[1stjohn0666]

without spot or blemish .. Perfect sacrifice. In the other area "inspired or dictated" The us is clearly the heavenly court (angels). Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Lets keep "inspired or dictated" to that topic. We should keep any debate here, it's kind of fun.

[RickD]

without spot or blemish .. Perfect sacrifice. In the other area "inspired or dictated" The us is clearly the heavenly court (angels). Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Lets keep "inspired or dictated" to that topic. We should keep any debate here, it's kind of fun.

So, in Genesis 1:26 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
You're saying "us" is God and angels? Can you show any scriptural evidence that shows angels have the power to create?

[neo-x]

plus john, you never answered how Christ can forgive sins, if man can not? if Christ is a man then he can not, right?

[B. W.]

without spot or blemish .. Perfect sacrifice. In the other area "inspired or dictated" The us is clearly the heavenly court (angels). Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Lets keep "inspired or dictated" to that topic. We should keep any debate here, it's kind of fun.

Isaiah 45:18 NKJV, "For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is HaElohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the YHWH, and there is no other."

In Isaiah 45:18 NKJV quoted above, I replaced the Hebrew proper names translated in the NKJV as God and LORD to YHWH and HaElohim. This is striking in its impact. HaElohim refers to YHWH and literally expressing ‘all of God’ in his true united tri-nature form. Then next, the last part states clearly no other was involved in creation. He will not share glory with another.

Job 38:1-7 is saying the same thing. As for the morning stars sing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy nowhere does this indicate at all that these were partners with God creating everything or anything. These only were singing and shouting for joy. They are not part of the US. Isaiah 45:18 states there were no other beings involved in creation as the context indicates.

Now look at Gen 2:7 - this verse clearly states that no others were involved in creation of man and no other breathed into Adam the breath of life. The Us's were not angelic beings.

So does the bible anywhere in the OT demonstrate God’s Tri-natured essence? Yes it does, for example let us look into the book of Isaiah.

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last." Isa 48:12 NKJV

Isa 48:12 shows the preincarnate Divine Jesus (Son) speaking clearly. How can we be sure of this? Rev 1: 8, Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17, 18c verifies what he spoke in Isaiah 48:11, 12, 13 was indeed him.

The Lord then speaks of Cyrus in verses 14 and 15 and then something else the Lord says is very telling in Verse 16 and 17.

Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

Here we have the First and the Last speak who is identified as God Himself hidden in the name YHWH as Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4 reveals. Then in verse 16, God says, the lord God and His Spirit Have sent me. Let me place the real Hebrew word translated as GOD in the text:

Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord (Adonai) YHWH and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

You have the something of note being said here. You have YHWH saying the lord YHWH and His Spirit sent Him to speak. Jesus is known as the Word in John 1:1. Who would be the lord YHWH and why was adonai (Lord) placed before the name? It Identifies the Father and His Sprit - the Holy Spirit sent him!

If you look at Isaiah 48:17-22, you’ll notice a switch in voice tone as the Father begins to speak in these verses. How can you tell? Verse 21 mentions a He that led Israel in the wilderness:

Isa 48:21 NKJV And they did not thirst When He led them through the deserts; He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them; He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out.
Who was the He? (Exodus 33:14, 15, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 16:10, Exodus 19:9, then note 1 Co 10:4) Well, the First and the Last mentioned in Isaiah 48:12 is the He the Father was speaking of.

Conclusion:

Now, go back to Isaiah 45:18 – For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is HaElohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the YHWH, and there is no other.

HaElohim refers to YHWH and literally expressing ‘all of God within YHWH’ in His true united tri-nature form. Then next, the last part states clearly no other was involved in creation. He shares not glory with another.

In Exodus 18:11 haelohim is translated as the gods and refers to all the false gods in the verse context. When HaElohim is used to denote YHWH, it refers to his entire state of being – the Divine Trinity – the Godhead - essence mentioned in Rom 1:20 NKJV and Col 2:9 NKJV).

The pronouns US’s referred to in Gen 1:26 is in reality HaElohim being Himself, functioning as Himself, creating as He did…and how He did…

Again this shows the inspiration from God into the bible because no human being could conceive One God in three persons of one divine essence (Father, Son, Holy Spirit found within the name YHWH).

Have a Nice day...
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[PaulSacramento]

The reality is that, regardless of how one feels about the Trinity doctrine and it's wording, that the writers in the NT assign to Jesus what the prophets of the OT assigned to God is a fact.
That Paul and John state that Jesus and God share the same nature and thus are both GOD by Nature, is also a fact.