Former skeptic shares glimpse of heaven

[Philip]

Free will still dominates.
We must understand that even IF God chooses to show an unbeliever a glimps of Heaven, that person is still free to reject it or interpret it their own way.
God does NOT force Himself on anyone, God does NOT reveal Himself in a "Here I am, this is how it is, bask in the radiance that is I !!!"
No, He comes into our life with love, tenderness and compassion, gently leading us to HIM in whatever path WE CHOOSE to follow.
He carries Us, Comforts US but never bullies us into believing a certain way because the choice of HOW and in WHOM to believe is, as always, up to US.

Paul, I agree with the fact that a "person is still free to reject it or interpret it in their own way." So many in the Bible saw amazing miracles but still refused to ACTIVELY believe/repent/follow. But as a NDE is so out of the norm, such a viewpoint-altering/shattering experience, that IF God was behind it, I can't imagine that He would have been subtle about that fact. So, I would say that those that are STILL non Christians post a NDE or that subsequently aren't even considering the Lord as the Reason/Instigator/Cause of it are either suppressing the truth revealed to them, purposely not seeking the truth about it, OR THEY WERE DECEIVED. And as the stories of such experiences don't all match up and as many are not followers of Christ afterwards, we just need to be very careful about making any blanket statement about what they actually are or WHO they are from. We just don't know and CAN'T be sure.

[Philip]

Bippy wrote: "Philip, how do you know her uncle isn't now an angel?"

Bippy, 1) you don't have ANY Scriptural reasons to support that; 2) As the model and first of those that will be resurrected, Jesus is STILL both God and a MAN, albeit now in His resurrected/glorified body (http://carm.org/jesus-man - particularly look at numbers 4 and 5 in the link).

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, I agree with the fact that a "person is still free to reject it or interpret it in their own way." So many in the Bible saw amazing miracles but still refused to ACTIVELY believe/repent/follow. But as a NDE is so out of the norm, such a viewpoint-altering/shattering experience, that IF God was behind it, I can't imagine that He would have been subtle about that fact. So, I would say that those that are STILL non Christians post a NDE or that subsequently aren't even considering the Lord as the Reason/Instigator/Cause of it are either suppressing the truth revealed to them, purposely not seeking the truth about it, OR THEY WERE DECEIVED. And as the stories of such experiences don't all match up and as many are not followers of Christ afterwards, we just need to be very careful about making any blanket statement about what they actually are or WHO they are from. We just don't know and CAN'T be sure.

I have discussed these things with enough atheists to realize they the vast majority with rationalize it away as some sort of latent hallucination or something like that.
I agree that we can never assume to KNOW for sure BUT I don't think that we can use the fact that a person became a believer (or not) as evidence that it was a legit revelation from God.

I recall discussing with one atheist and asking him what he need as proof and he said God appearing to Him.
I asked if he was 100% sure that a vision of God ( which is what it would be) would be enough, in other words if personal revelation is a valid form of evidence and he said No, that quite honestly, he would second guess himself and probably NOT believe it was anything than a mental trick or hallucination of some sort.

[Philip]

I agree that we can never assume to KNOW for sure BUT I don't think that we can use the fact that a person became a believer (or not) as evidence that it was a legit revelation from God.

Agree! But IF a NDE was from God, I can't imagine that the person experiencing it wouldn't know. I don't think for a minute God wouldn't make that clear or that He would deceive them. So I figure those (remaining unchanged/unsaved) who assert such experiences are either suppressing/hiding/still in rebellion to a God or they were deceived by another entity. But the fact that some of these experiences are deceptions are certainly a possibility. We just shouldn't assume anything, perceive all as being from the same source, deny that some aren't possible demonic deceptions, OR that some are truly of the Lord (as that is certainly a possibility as well).

[PaulSacramento]

Agree! But IF a NDE was from God, I can't imagine that the person experiencing it wouldn't know. I don't think for a minute God wouldn't make that clear or that He would deceive them. So I figure those (remaining unchanged/unsaved) who assert such experiences are either suppressing/hiding/still in rebellion to a God or they were deceived by another entity. But the fact that some of these experiences are deceptions are certainly a possibility. We just shouldn't assume anything, perceive all as being from the same source, deny that some aren't possible demonic deceptions, OR that some are truly of the Lord (as that is certainly a possibility as well).

Yes, we should keep open to the possibility that ANY "divine" revelation may NOT be from God, that is a smart thing to do.
I am not sure if during a NDE that they ( demons and the fallen ones) can have that kind of influence on the spirit at this stage, it is a pretty close stage to being with God, but I for one do NOT know for sure.
I do know that people can rationalize some amazing things and fro those that can NOT fathom the notion of "miracle" or "supernatural", I can see them rationalizing anything that they view in that way.

[Philip]

Paul, as well, as a NDE would appear to be ONLY a NEAR death one (but not actual death), then it also begs a controversial question: Is there perhaps a last mercy, at least FOR SOME (perhaps one who has never before heard the Gospel), one last (first?) opportunity and a direct understanding about Jesus and the necessity of repentance? So far, the only examples in Scripture of anyone being saved are of those who had first heard and then responded to the Gospel as so commanded in Scripture. As, I think, what some are asserting here is that this may well be the case - EXCEPT - that those we are speaking of "came back" from their experience/didn't actually die.

So, could there be such a salvation opportunity for one previously unsaved, which happens BEFORE death but during a NDE, yet in which they DON'T actually come back to life from it, and that AFTER their BEFORE-death encounter they DO actually die, but into eternal life? This would be beyond what I believe the parameters of Scripture teach, however, in the light of NDEs, and IF they are real, then the thought is intriguing. But remember, all we know from Scripture is that AFTER DEATH, there are no further chances - but again, we're not speaking of AFTER death, but NEAR death.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, as well, as a NDE would appear to be ONLY a NEAR death one (but not actual death), then it also begs a controversial question: Is there perhaps a last mercy, at least FOR SOME (perhaps one who has never before heard the Gospel), one last (first?) opportunity and a direct understanding about Jesus and the necessity of repentance? So far, the only examples in Scripture of anyone being saved are of those who had first heard and then responded to the Gospel as so commanded in Scripture. As, I think, what some are asserting here is that this may well be the case - EXCEPT - that those we are speaking of "came back" from their experience/didn't actually die.

So, could there be such a salvation opportunity for one previously unsaved, which happens BEFORE death but during a NDE, yet in which they DON'T actually come back to life from it, and that AFTER their BEFORE-death encounter they DO actually die, but into eternal life? This would be beyond what I believe the parameters of Scripture teach, however, in the light of NDEs, and IF they are real, then the thought is intriguing. But remember, all we know from Scripture is that AFTER DEATH, there are no further chances - but again, we're not speaking of AFTER death, but NEAR death.

I don't know.
I would like to believe that all that are unbelievers because they have never know the gospel or Christ, would still have a chance and while the GOJ says that those that do NOT believe wil lbe judged by their actions (while believers will NOT be judged), this is after the resurrection and not at the moment of death.
Of course it is possible that God may choose to do whatever HE WANTS TO !

[Philip]

Paul said: "I don't know. I would like to believe that all that are unbelievers because they have never know the gospel or Christ, would still have a chance and while the GOJ says that those that do NOT believe wil lbe judged by their actions (while believers will NOT be judged), this is after the resurrection and not at the moment of death.
Of course it is possible that God may choose to do whatever HE WANTS TO !

Hebrews 9:27 would suggest there is no second chance, AFTER DEATH ("And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ..." However, and again, we are talking NEAR death experience, and not an AFTER death one.

But there is a fair bit that Scripture says about what the heathen CAN understand and what they have done with what God has ALREADY shown them. See an older post of mine dealing with this very issue here (start with my beginning post): http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 38#p101538

[PaulSacramento]

Paul said: "I don't know. I would like to believe that all that are unbelievers because they have never know the gospel or Christ, would still have a chance and while the GOJ says that those that do NOT believe wil lbe judged by their actions (while believers will NOT be judged), this is after the resurrection and not at the moment of death.
Of course it is possible that God may choose to do whatever HE WANTS TO !

Hebrews 9:27 would suggest there is no second chance, AFTER DEATH ("And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ..." However, and again, we are talking NEAR death experience, and not an AFTER death one.

But there is a fair bit that Scripture says about what the heathen CAN understand and what they have done with what God has ALREADY shown them. See an older post of mine dealing with this very issue here (start with my beginning post): http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 38#p101538

It's not always correct to get a GENERAL theological view from a letter to a SPECIFIC group or in regards ot e specific situation.
The writer of Hebrews was writing to Hebrews and not gentiles, to people that KNEW the Law, that knew God and that KNEW the issues of messiah ship, belief, faith, etc.
It is possible that, because he was doing so he understood that to THEM, there is no "second chance" at death because they KNOW.
Of course I am just speculating.
My point is that, according to John, the faith of believers is what keeps them from Judgment and those that do NOT believe will be judged on their actions.
AFTER the resurrection of course.

Heathens can most certianly understand the significance of God BUT how that significance is explained and hwo they express that knowledge, that is a different matter.
God has shown many His wonders but if one has not been explained the WHY and HOW of those wonder, then all they have is that there are wonders.
A person that has been shown the universe and been told and explaine how it came to be in the scientific way and then is shown and explained in the theological way, must either compare or reconcile them.
If that person has been explained the theological way by someone that is "not qualified" or has been unable to make clear because of THEIR lack of understanding, and the skeptic rejects the theological view, is the skeptic to blame for "not knowing God" ?

[Philip]

If that person has been explained the theological way by someone that is "not qualified" or has been unable to make clear because of THEIR lack of understanding, and the skeptic rejects the theological view, is the skeptic to blame for "not knowing God" ?

Romans 1 says, yes, they ARE to blame: "So they are without excuse."

But it goes further, implying that they COULD have known much more, even unto salvation, IF they had so desired: For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and EXCHANGED the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

That word, "EXCHANGED," is very key. It implies that they COULD have fully known God but chose to ignore Him and chose instead gods of their own making. Contrast this with Cornelius who didn't have the complete picture either, had not heard the Gospel, but nonetheless responded and sought what aspects of God he did know. And so God honored that. History has many stories of people learning of the Gospel in strange, miraculous ways. So a person's seeming isolation in place, time, geography or heathen culture are not insurmountable for a God Who built the universe to reach. But they must be WILLING. They can also be UNWILLING. And so the problem the heathen have is NOT a knowledge problem. They already know enough to know more, but only if they honor what God has ALREADY shown them and show a willingness to respond positively to that. And thus my belief is that God sprinkled many of those that would remain hard in their unwillingness across the centuries and geographically so that their have historically been (and somewhat remain) heathen pockets where they've not heard the Gospel.

So, if we are to believe 1 Timothy 2:4: (That God,) "Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."; And Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" Then we know that God gives ALL people an opportunity to be saved, and that no one perishes separated from God because they didn't have enough information. Now, all that said, there may be hidden things that happen that we don't know about. Which is why these NDEs are intriguing. But if we can only go on what Scripture shows us, then no one can be saved without first hearing the Gospel and obeying its message. But make no mistake, God moves to ALL of us first, but people can and do rebuff Him, even before hearing His complete message the Gospel.

[PaulSacramento]

To exchange one thing for another one must HAVE that thing and that is a different case altogether.
Recall that warning to NOT being a "Stumbling block" to others?
That means that there IS the possibility of a Christian, in his behaviour or soemthing else, to be the cause of another NOT believing.
AS for Romans 1, look at the context:

Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [o]crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for [p]a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed [q]forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in [t]their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [v] haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

It is aimed at the unrighteous and ungodly that suppress the truth.
People that, in Paul's own words, KNEW God but did not honour God or give thanks.
The exchanged that knowledge of God and God for pagan idol worship and in doing so they Blasphemed the HS.


This is NOT the case of a person that has NEVER know Christ or a person that has been exposed to a "deviant" version of Christ or even a person who's heart has been truned away from knowing Christ because of the actions of some "followers of Christ".

[Philip]

The passaage in Romans if far more inclusive than those who knew the word: "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Another point I'd make is that I do believe in an age of accountability, and that those dying before they've reached that are immediately in the arms of God - or at least they are made to understand the Gospel message and decide for themselves. Same for those severely retarded or mentally unable to be communicated with.

[PaulSacramento]

The passaage in Romans if far more inclusive than those who knew the word: "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Another point I'd make is that I do believe in an age of accountability, and that those dying before they've reached that are immediately in the arms of God - or at least they are made to understand the Gospel message and decide for themselves. Same for those severely retarded or mentally unable to be communicated with.

You can't remove that passage in Romans from the context in which Paul was writing and to WHOM he was writing.
Yes, God has made himself know to all, but not all had understood His message and they were with excuse, BUT not now, not now that the Gospel had been delivered.
Of course, to those that the gospel had NOT been delivered yet or even "mis-delivered" that is different.
Paul is very clear as he continues that those "without excuse" are so because:

21 For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [o]crawling creatures.

[PaulSacramento]

Lets be clear here, if a person has never know God, then they have never known and can't reject ( you can't reject what you don't know or have).
For those that ONLY one a "false God" and have never know GOD, then that is all they have known.
Imagine that all you know of Christ is the limited contact with his followers and that these followers are not very good people at all.
Will you KNOW Christ through them? will you know his Gospel?

[Philip]

Paul, I hope you're not saying that people can't know that the true God EXISTS - no matter what remote jungle or far corner of the earth the live in? Or that they can't reject even THAT limited knowledge of Him? Is the law not written on their hearts as well?