Had they chance ... ?

[1over137]

How you came to that conclusion?

Because no infinitely wise and infinitely good God would command those things, things like stoning a rebellious child to death or things like this:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her

.
So if you rape a girl, you must pay the father some money and then you must marry the girl. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

1. Infinitely wise father and good God may like to prevent people getting into evil. I wonder whether there was such case when people stoned some child.
2. No, its not the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I do not see it as ridiculous. Why do you?

[PaulSacramento]

Causal laws do NOT equal condoning an act.
Putting restrictions and rules on an act, does NOT = condoning it.
Modern example:
If a Man rapes he will go to jail for no less than 5 years and pay a fine.
Does that equal condoning Rape?
Of course not.

Again here you go with very poor examples. If a man rapes he will go to jail for no less than 5 years because RAPE IS ILLEGAL!!!! Going to jail is a punishment for breaking a specific law, a law which specifically says not to rape. So how on earth could punishing someone for breaking a law equal condoning it in the first place? Furthermore did you even read the verses I posted? Seriously?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance

I dont know what else I could post that shows that this clearly condones slavery. If specifically saying that you can purchase slaves from among foregners, you can treat them as property, and you can pass them to your children as permanent inheritance, isnt condoning slavery, then what is it?!!!!?

We've gone over this time and again and you always seem to forget that just because YOU disagree with a point doesn't make is any less valid.
Get off the high horse dude, its unbecoming.
I know that you KNOW what "causal laws" are.
Either you are being very closed minded and just not willing to see any other side or you just don't get it.
Either way I am not sure what you are trying to prove here since ALL of your objections HAVE been answered before.

[PaulSacramento]

The cultural context of when and to whom these laws were given MIST be taken into account.
When God gave these Laws to Israel, what "laws" had Israel been under before them?
How did they compare? Where these new Laws a "step up" or a step down compared to other ANE Laws to which Israel would have been exposed to.

[MAGSolo]

Magsolo wrote:
I dont know what else I could post that shows that this clearly condones slavery. If specifically saying that you can purchase slaves from among foregners, you can treat them as property, and you can pass them to your children as permanent inheritance, isnt condoning slavery, then what is it?!!!!?

This is what it is:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene ... buy-slaves

"In the fallen world that mankind had created, slavery was a reality. God permitted its existence and worked within its system."
In the fallen world, lots of things were reality. In the fallen world, rebellious sons were a reality and yet God commanded these to be stoned to death. So because slavery was a reality, God decided to permit its existence and work within the system, instead of deciding to be the ultimate final arbiter of what is right and wrong? And this is a reasonable answer to you? God who we are supposed to look to as the final authority of what is right and wrong, good and evil, this God chose to permit people to be owned as property by other people, and passed on to children as inheritance, simply because slavery was a reality in the fallen world? Instead of simply telling us what is right and wrong, he worked with the system that humans established, even though it was clearly wrong? This is not what authority figures do. Authority figures tell you what is right and what is wrong and the fact that you accept this answer is flat out pathetic. A good parent dictates to their children what is right and wrong, they dont permit their children to do what they want and work within the system. I am sorry but your answer is simply unsatisfactory. It is unacceptable. It is not acceptable that God permitted slavery simply because it was a reality at the time. Lots of things were a reality at the time and yet God did not permit or condone them or work within their systems. But slavery was a reality to the people who made up God, so to them it made sense that God would not have an issue with it. The bible even says that if you beat your slave severely but the slave does not perish, then no punishment shall be brought upon the master. Yeah, way to get in there and teach right from wrong God. This is clearly further proof that God was created to fit the ideals, and practices of the people of that time that made him.

[MAGSolo]

How you came to that conclusion?

Because no infinitely wise and infinitely good God would command those things, things like stoning a rebellious child to death or things like this:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her

.
So if you rape a girl, you must pay the father some money and then you must marry the girl. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

1. Infinitely wise father and good God may like to prevent people getting into evil. I wonder whether there was such case when people stoned some child.
2. No, its not the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I do not see it as ridiculous. Why do you?

Are you male or female? If you are male, do you have any daughters or close female relatives or friends? How would you like it if they were raped and then forced to marry the person that raped them? If you are female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?
Honestly the fact that you dont find it ridiculous says a lot about you though. Can I ask how old you are and what level of education you have?

[PaulSacramento]

How you came to that conclusion?

Because no infinitely wise and infinitely good God would command those things, things like stoning a rebellious child to death or things like this:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her

.
So if you rape a girl, you must pay the father some money and then you must marry the girl. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

1. Infinitely wise father and good God may like to prevent people getting into evil. I wonder whether there was such case when people stoned some child.
2. No, its not the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I do not see it as ridiculous. Why do you?

In some cultures, even today, a raped woman is lower than the dirt, has no value and is "better off dead".
In the ANE, that was the case typically OUTSIDE of Israel.
The rapist would go "free" and the woman would be tarnish forever, perhaps killed.
God accommodated His Law to the "stubborn and hard headed" Hebrews and give them a Law they they coudl work with ( lets not forget that even with these very accommodating Laws they were still not kept as they should have, can you imagine if they were more strict?), the rapist would HAVE to compensate the family, and would have to marry the victim ( and be subject to her father by the way, as per Israel custom), sure this may seem harsh for the female BUT the alternative would be far worse and also, we must realize that marriage would, probably, have just been in "name only" and that this individual would have been treated rather poorly by her family ( to say the least).

[1over137]

Sorry, but where was this answered before?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance

Just give mi link. Just interested.

[PaulSacramento]

How you came to that conclusion?

Because no infinitely wise and infinitely good God would command those things, things like stoning a rebellious child to death or things like this:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her

.
So if you rape a girl, you must pay the father some money and then you must marry the girl. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

1. Infinitely wise father and good God may like to prevent people getting into evil. I wonder whether there was such case when people stoned some child.
2. No, its not the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I do not see it as ridiculous. Why do you?

Are you male or female? If you are male, do you have any daughters or close female relatives or friends? How would you like it if they were raped and then forced to marry the person that raped them? If you are female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?
Honestly the fact that you dont find it ridiculous says a lot about you though. Can I ask how old you are and what level of education you have?

Hanna is Female and highly educated and you should NOT try to base an argument on "ad hominen" attacks.
Attacking a poster personally like you are trying to do is not good.

[MAGSolo]

The cultural context of when and to whom these laws were given MIST be taken into account.
When God gave these Laws to Israel, what "laws" had Israel been under before them?
How did they compare? Where these new Laws a "step up" or a step down compared to other ANE Laws to which Israel would have been exposed to.

No, the time and to whom these laws were given do not need to be taken into account at all actually.

[MAGSolo]

How you came to that conclusion?

Because no infinitely wise and infinitely good God would command those things, things like stoning a rebellious child to death or things like this:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her

.
So if you rape a girl, you must pay the father some money and then you must marry the girl. Is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

1. Infinitely wise father and good God may like to prevent people getting into evil. I wonder whether there was such case when people stoned some child.
2. No, its not the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I do not see it as ridiculous. Why do you?

Are you male or female? If you are male, do you have any daughters or close female relatives or friends? How would you like it if they were raped and then forced to marry the person that raped them? If you are female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?
Honestly the fact that you dont find it ridiculous says a lot about you though. Can I ask how old you are and what level of education you have?

Hanna is Female and highly educated and you should NOT try to base an argument on "ad hominen" attacks.
Attacking a poster personally like you are trying to do is not good.

Where did I use an ad hominen attack? I think I asked a question.

[MAGSolo]

So Hannah, if you are a female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?

[PaulSacramento]

The cultural context of when and to whom these laws were given MIST be taken into account.
When God gave these Laws to Israel, what "laws" had Israel been under before them?
How did they compare? Where these new Laws a "step up" or a step down compared to other ANE Laws to which Israel would have been exposed to.

No, the time and to whom these laws were given do not need to be taken into account at all actually.

Yes, they do.
And YOU saying that they don't doesn't equate to that being so.
In your opinion they don't and in the opinion of others, they do.
You opinion is NOT more valid than theirs ( or vice-versa).

[1over137]

Are you male or female? If you are male, do you have any daughters or close female relatives or friends? How would you like it if they were raped and then forced to marry the person that raped them? If you are female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?
Honestly the fact that you dont find it ridiculous says a lot about you though. Can I ask how old you are and what level of education you have?

When I was giving you the question about how come that you see it ridiculous, on my mind was the same what was on Pauls's mind. That violated woman would have harsh time. You need to think about the old times.
My education: PhD in theoretical physics, Master degree done with rector's commendation. (I had only one B during my studies, otherwise only A's).
I am a women, 28 years old.
Any more questions on your heart?

Oh, and I have already 3 publications in prestiguous journals in physics.

[PaulSacramento]

]
Where did I use an ad hominen attack? I think I asked a question.

That you have to ask that, makes me think that you are not paying attention to HOW you post and what you seem to imply with your posts, may I ask how old YOU are and YOUR level of education?

[1over137]

So Hannah, if you are a female, how would you like to be raped and then forced to marry the person that raped you?

Maybe that marriage would prevent me from being raped further by other people.