"Begotten"

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:41 pm

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... t-it-means

1stjohn0666 · Post by **1stjohn0666** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:19 am

"There is absolutely no logical reason why Jesus cannot be both human and divine at the same time. It is not a logical impossibility. The question is whether or not it is a biblical teaching. What does the Bible say?"

Jesus was human and divine, but not God.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:40 am

RickD wrote:http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... t-it-means

1stjohn wrote:
Jesus was human and divine, but not God.

What from the above link don't you understand? How can Jesus be sinless, and a perfect sacrifice if he is not God incarnate? The bible is clear that only God is without sin. Please explain to me how, if Jesus is only human, and not God, how he is without sin. And why then there's a contradiction in the bible, that says only God is without sin?

Post by **Philip** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:53 am

1stJohn, you will never know the truth as long as you have your brain's spam filter set to stop it from getting through, or as long as you view Scripture through your current theological lens. Until you abandon these, no mountain of Scriptural or theological refutation will ever be sufficient to change your mind.

What is your church affiliation?

1stjohn0666 · Post by **1stjohn0666** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:50 am

I think God can make something sinless, like Jesus.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:08 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I think God can make something sinless, like Jesus.

It really doesn't matter that you think that. There's no scriptural support for your idea.

1stjohn0666 · Post by **1stjohn0666** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:45 pm

Jesus was tempted, and suffered the temptations, God cannot be tempted. As with Jesus and Satan .. at the end of it all Jesus says to Satan "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" Now Jesus does not tell Satan to worship him. Jesus never in scripture taught to worship him. Jesus taught us to worship his Father who is God.
The first Adam was tempted and said yes, the last Adam was tempted and said NO.
Thank you Jesus!

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:03 pm

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

1stjohn, read this, and you'll see that Jesus was worshiped:
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin18.htm

1stjohn0666 · Post by **1stjohn0666** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:36 am

Jesus was a "mortal man" being mortal means one can die. Scripture is clear that only God is immortal. If then Jesus died, he must not be God.
As for being worshiped:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=279

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:02 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Jesus was a "mortal man" being mortal means one can die. Scripture is clear that only God is immortal. If then Jesus died, he must not be God.
As for being worshiped:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=279

John, we agree that Jesus had a human nature. In that human nature, he was mortal. Otherwise he couldn't have died for the sins of the world. You're still denying the fact that Jesus was, is, and always will be God. And as a God of love, he lowered himself to take on a human nature, and death on a cross, so that we may live forever. If Christ only had a human nature, he wouldn't be the unblemished sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world.

And as for your article, the author fails to recognize the fact that everywhere in scripture that an angel was worshiped by people, that angel made a point to tell the people not to worship him because the angel was a created being too. And everywhere in scripture where Jesus was worshiped, he accepted man's worship, because he is God.

Post by **Philip** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:03 am

And I would add further, that to not believe that Jesus was man, but also that He was and IS FULLY God, is to also not accept the REAL Jesus, as He described Himself and as He said we all must do. Thus, if we have faith in Jesus to save us - and if Jesus is not GOD, then our faith is not directly in God. As no one is perfect or sinless but God, and as God required the PERFECT, sinless sacrifice, then Jesus absolute had to be perfect or our the sacrifice would have been insufficient. I would say that anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God is not saved. And, obviously, we must have an active/repenting faith that follows Jesus as LORD, as even the devil and his minions believe "in" Jesus.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:25 am

For those of you following this thread, what 1stjohn0666 is adhering to, by denying the deity of Jesus Christ, is a cult.

What is the definition if a cult?

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:39 am

RickD wrote:For those of you following this thread, what 1stjohn0666 is adhering to, by denying the deity of Jesus Christ, is a cult.

What is the definition if a cult?

The denying of Jesus' "deity" is not new, it started first with Ebionitisim, in which the Jews that believed Jesus to be the messiah tried to "interpret Him via the OT and made him nothing more than a prophet. This view was deemed Heretical because of the obvious complications it cased in reagrds to Jesus' claims and Salvation.
It was most popular as Arianism, which denied His divinity and made him simply a created being, BUT the first and special created being ( a step up from Ebionisim).
Both views put at odds the core teachings of the apostles and the NT:
Salvation is ONLY through Christ ( A direct contridiction to the OT view that only God saves unless Jesus is God by nature which he can only be if begotten and NOT created).
Jesus can forgive the sins of others ( only God can do that as per the OT)
Jesus is the through which ALL was created ( only God can create).
Jesus is the exact form of God, was equal in nature/esence to God ( of which he emptied himself), Jesus is the incarnation of the Word of God, etc.
In short, John and Paul in particular were wrong in what they wrote and preached.

B. W. · Post by **B. W.** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:58 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Jesus was a "mortal man" being mortal means one can die. Scripture is clear that only God is immortal. If then Jesus died, he must not be God.
As for being worshiped:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=279

John666 you need to be warned: your Restoration Light doctorial POV (Point of View) is in direct violation of the following commandment:

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”

God making a created being to be worshiped is in violation of the above verse As well as in direct violation from the mouth of God spoken in the following verses listed below:

Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Isa 44:8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.'"

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; 22 There is none besides Me. "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD your God Ever since the land of Egypt, And you shall know no God but Me; For there is no savior besides Me.

What your Restoration People are doing is teaching violation of the law of God and principles of God found in the bible. At least we now know you are a Restoration Light cult – yes a heretical cult.

You need to answer the following – there is no savior other than God himself and no other being can be bowed too or worshiped. Yet your POV worships a created being, God appointed as savior, asnd says it is okay to worship. Cannot you see that such jesus and god you adhere too is not the Lord of the bible?

Your POV is also guilty of turning God’s Oneness into a comprehensible singular item such as a singular chair, table, or even in the image of Zeus’s oneness – an echid. This is forbidden:

Isa 46:5 "To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike?

Isa 40:25 "To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Jer 10:6, 7 Inasmuch as there is none like You, O LORD (You are great, and Your name is great in might), 7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? For this is Your rightful due. For among all the wise men of the nations, And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You.

What your POV does is preparing you for this next Verse:

Jer 10:15, 16 They are futile, a work of errors; In the time of their punishment they shall perish. 16 The Portion of Jacob is not like them, For He is the Maker of all things, And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance; The LORD of hosts is His name.

The Christian Orthodox Doctrine of the Divine Trinity of God’s Oneness does no such violation. This doctrine is not tri-theism. It explains how God is incomprehensible as well as so in his oneness. One God, in three persons, of one divine essence (essence derived from Greek word in bible – translated Godhead)

This is the only way one can truly understand who really Jesus is without violating any of the injunctions form God such as:

Isa 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH - The preincarnate Jesus speaking here), And besides Me there is no savior.

Whom it was foretold:

Jer 23:5, "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth."

As revealed in -- Isaiah 7:14 - Isaiah 9:6 – John 1:14

Zep 3:17 , "The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."

…And revealed as Jesus Christ during these times of refreshing and reconciliation.

Accord to you POV John666 the apostles would be guilty of teaching another God, equal to God.. and violation of all the commands from God against doing so. However, the only logical explanation is found in the Great Mystery of the Godhead which does no, or provides any violation of any command of God concerning making another god that can be worshiped other than himself.

Philippians 2:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men....

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:14-15 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things,
exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

1 John 4:13, 14 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

John 666 - you and your group does not know the original languages, how words are used, such as elohim, and do injustice to God's Word's recorded in Bible. You need to seriously withdraw yourself from such doctrines your POV holds and renounce it before it is to late.

Bible quotes are all from the NKJV
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1stjohn0666 · Post by **1stjohn0666** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:15 am

To say Jesus is the creator is to say that Jesus is the Father, which is not the doctrine of the trinity. Yaweh who would be the 1st member of the trinity was the creator and sole "person" through the 2nd member all things were created. The 2nd member did not create, nor the 3rd member of the trinity. Denying the post biblical Creeds is what I am denying. Where in the bible does it say we "have to believe in the trinity to be saved" or believe Jesus is God? As the Creeds so clearly put it. I am not denying the son of God, I am denying that the son is God. John 17:3 Jesus clearly removes himself from being God.

Evidence for God from Science

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