1stjohn0666 wrote:To say Jesus is the creator is to say that Jesus is the Father, which is not the doctrine of the trinity. Yaweh who would be the 1st member of the trinity was the creator and sole "person" through the 2nd member all things were created. The 2nd member did not create, nor the 3rd member of the trinity. Denying the post biblical Creeds is what I am denying. Where in the bible does it say we "have to believe in the trinity to be saved" or believe Jesus is God? As the Creeds so clearly put it. I am not denying the son of God, I am denying that the son is God. John 17:3 Jesus clearly removes himself from being God.
Where did anyone say that Jesus was the creator?
John clearly states that God created the universe THROUGH His Divine word and His divine word is Jesus.
Jesus was the instrument through which ALL came to be according to Paul.
Again, to deny this is to deny the writings of the apostles.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
1stjohn0666 wrote:To say Jesus is the creator is to say that Jesus is the Father, which is not the doctrine of the trinity. Yaweh who would be the 1st member of the trinity was the creator and sole "person" through the 2nd member all things were created. The 2nd member did not create, nor the 3rd member of the trinity. Denying the post biblical Creeds is what I am denying. Where in the bible does it say we "have to believe in the trinity to be saved" or believe Jesus is God? As the Creeds so clearly put it. I am not denying the son of God, I am denying that the son is God. John 17:3 Jesus clearly removes himself from being God.
This is an established Charles Taze Russell teaching/doctrine – who is this person see this Wikipedia link and find out:
He is responsible for providing many heretical cult groups their Group Think.
Thank you finally for providing us with your founders ID on the Restoration Light links which prove whom you agree with and follow is not Jesus Christ but rather what one man wrote - Charles Taze Russell.
Now there are people here who can actually help you really find the truth about Jesus Christ from the bible and help you find the real Jesus and his real offer of real salvation - are you willing to learn or do you chose to adhere to Charles Taze Russell dictations?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
John, we are talking about the trinity. Read and understand. It's not polytheism. You are misrepresenting what we believe. http://carm.org/what-trinity
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
I know what 1John believes, I have JW family members remember?
They associate Creator with Father so, to them, Is Jesus is creator, then he is The Father.
One step at a time.
Before you get to the Trinity, one must establish the UNDERSTANDING that Jesus and The Father share the same nature.
There is NO way to distinguish the Son from the Father in the creative process because in EVERYTHING you CAN'T have one without the other.
So, Yes, Jesus is God but Jesus is NOT The Father.
The issue is that for non-trinitarians, GOD = The Father, period.
1stjohn0666 wrote:The God of God did the creating through God?
God is NOT the NAME of God.
God is the term we use to describe the "being" we know as God.
The Trinity is a doctrine that tries to explain the NATURE and ESSENCE of God and does so by stating that God is a perfect spiritual union of Father, Son and HS.
I know what 1John believes, I have JW family members remember?
They associate Creator with Father so, to them, Is Jesus is creator, then he is The Father.
One step at a time.
Before you get to the Trinity, one must establish the UNDERSTANDING that Jesus and The Father share the same nature.
There is NO way to distinguish the Son from the Father in the creative process because in EVERYTHING you CAN'T have one without the other.
So, Yes, Jesus is God but Jesus is NOT The Father.
The issue is that for non-trinitarians, GOD = The Father, period.
Thank You! You had me sacred for a moment.
We've been trying to get that across to John, but it's not sinking in. Either, he just doesn't understand the concept of the trinity, or he just doesn't care. Paul, maybe you know of a better way to help John understand what we're trying to say.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
I know what 1John believes, I have JW family members remember?
They associate Creator with Father so, to them, Is Jesus is creator, then he is The Father.
One step at a time.
Before you get to the Trinity, one must establish the UNDERSTANDING that Jesus and The Father share the same nature.
There is NO way to distinguish the Son from the Father in the creative process because in EVERYTHING you CAN'T have one without the other.
So, Yes, Jesus is God but Jesus is NOT The Father.
The issue is that for non-trinitarians, GOD = The Father, period.
Thank You! You had me sacred for a moment.
We've been trying to get that across to John, but it's not sinking in. Either, he just doesn't understand the concept of the trinity, or he just doesn't care. Paul, maybe you know of a better way to help John understand what we're trying to say.
I have come to the understanding that, dealing with JW's and other unitarians, that the concept of the Trinity is NOT really the issue, its the wording.
They can grasp the "unity" of Father, Son and HS, they just don't agree that this "unity" is a union of equals.
I think that is the issue.
Of course the other issue is that JW's, for example, do NOT believe Jesus to be of the same nature as God the Father, they view him as a created being, namely the Arch Angel Michael.
I have come to the understanding that, dealing with JW's and other unitarians, that the concept of the Trinity is NOT really the issue, its the wording.
They can grasp the "unity" of Father, Son and HS, they just don't agree that this "unity" is a union of equals.
I think that is the issue.
Of course the other issue is that JW's, for example, do NOT believe Jesus to be of the same nature as God the Father, they view him as a created being, namely the Arch Angel Michael.
Paul, that's pretty much the same as what 1stjohn says he believes, except for the part about Jesus being an angel. I'm seeing that 1stJohn really doesn't understand the concept of the trinity. He keeps saying its Polytheism.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
I have come to the understanding that, dealing with JW's and other unitarians, that the concept of the Trinity is NOT really the issue, its the wording.
They can grasp the "unity" of Father, Son and HS, they just don't agree that this "unity" is a union of equals.
I think that is the issue.
Of course the other issue is that JW's, for example, do NOT believe Jesus to be of the same nature as God the Father, they view him as a created being, namely the Arch Angel Michael.
Paul, that's pretty much the same as what 1stjohn says he believes, except for the part about Jesus being an angel. I'm seeing that 1stJohn really doesn't understand the concept of the trinity. He keeps saying its Polytheism.
Yes, for those that do NOT understand the UNION of Father, Son and HS, there is no way that Christ and HS can be God.
Sure, for those that believe the HS is the spirit of God ( acting in the world), the HS being God is ok, since it is "just God's spirit", of course theyhave no answer for when Jesus is spoken of AS the HS...
I have noticed that to avoid many of these complications, the JW's for example, have just "translated" the bible their way and have their own "offical" translation, that "justifies" their doctrines.
