Why is it heretic site?Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.
FL
Matthew 5:17-20
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1over137
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
A Heresy is a view that is outside what is considered "orthodox".1over137 wrote:Why is it heretic site?Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.
FL
Of course what is orthodox CAN be subjective to the denomination one follows.
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Zionist
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
well verse 18 may not be as what others have made it out to be. i truly believe it is a literal saying meaning the passing of this universe into the next. God will make new heavens and a new earth this much is evident from scriptures Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:1 and i will also say that all hasn't been fulfilled yet. the day of the Lord has not happened therefore all hasn't been fulfilled. Matthew 5: 17-19 since all has yet to be fulfilled the law and prophets are not to be done away with. 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 Paul himself affirms the importance of scripture and at that time take into account that when he said scripture he was referring to the tanakh and Paul constantly alluded to and quoted from it hence it is not done away with. not trying to argue just showing another view.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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1over137
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
I am glad for various views. So, according to you, should people even nowadays follow tanakh rules?Zionist wrote:well verse 18 may not be as what others have made it out to be. i truly believe it is a literal saying meaning the passing of this universe into the next. God will make new heavens and a new earth this much is evident from scriptures Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:1 and i will also say that all hasn't been fulfilled yet. the day of the Lord has not happened therefore all hasn't been fulfilled. Matthew 5: 17-19 since all has yet to be fulfilled the law and prophets are not to be done away with. 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 Paul himself affirms the importance of scripture and at that time take into account that when he said scripture he was referring to the tanakh and Paul constantly alluded to and quoted from it hence it is not done away with. not trying to argue just showing another view.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Zionist
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
@1over137
this is basically my stance on the tanakh that although there are things for obvious reasons that cannot be followed any longer such as the laws of the preisthood and ect the teachings in it are still for us today hence why paul and other NT writters allude to it so much and also why Christ said Matthew 5:17. the law was never to be taken as the means for salvation. in fact salvation was always from God alone. the people of Israel lost sight of this and became legalistic in their ways due to the talmud which is the oral law and their interpretation of torah that became skewed. rabbis started to assert that to understand torah and its meanings it was necessary to know the talmud or oral law. i could get deeper into it but i feel cheezerrox's answer to paul's question sums up what i feel and think considering torah/law. hope what i said and what cheezerrox's post answers any questions you may have had.
Cheezerox
Good question, as I think many assume that because we don't perform all of the commandments (like sacrifice, execution, etc.), that those who are Torah pursuant aren't as committed as they claim to be.
As Gman specified, not all commandments were meant for all people. The commandments pertaining specifically to the kohanim (the priests) are no longer in effect simply because we have no kohanim. In fact, the kahanut (priesthood) has been changed due to the Messiah's Work, as it says at Hebrews 7:11-12, "Now if perfection was through the Levitical preisthood, (for on the basis of it the people received the Torah), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of Torah also." This change is obvious, as Biblical Judaism is ineffective without the priesthood and the sacrifices (although modern non-Messianic Judaism minimizes these concepts). Yet Christianity and Messianic Judaism resolve the issue by asserting that Jesus is our everlasting Priest and our everlasting Sacrifice.
Likewise, sacrifice is impossible now, as it says at Leviticus 1:1-2, "When any man of you brings an offering to Hashem....he shall offer it at the doorway of the Tent of Meeting, that he may be accepted by Hashem." It says again at Deuteronomy 12:5-6, "But you shall seek Hashem at the Place which Hashem your G-d will choose from all your tribes, to establish His Name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come. There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the offerings that you give, your the offerings you have vowed, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock."
Execution is also no longer permitted to be followed, because it can't be performed unless the THEOCRACY of Isra'el exists, and the court (the Sanhedrin) rules in favor of it, and the Sanhedrin doesn't exist right now. Between that and the fact that only members of theocratic nation of Isra'el are subject to the punishment of execution, and not simply anyone who happens to be in the area (note that Deuteronomy 13:6, which speaks about the punishment for a citizen of Isra'el who tries to entice his countrymen to follow other gods, says family members and friends, not strangers or aliens, and Deuteronomy 13:7 mentions that other peoples worship other gods nearby without repurcussion), it would in fact be AGAINST Torah (Exodus 20:13, which forbids unlawful and/or arbitrary taking of life; Deuteronomy 19:15, which requires both multiple witnesses and evidence presented to and investigated by a court) to put anyone to death for any reason at this time.
Also, according to the traditional numeration, 26 of the 613 commandments are only applicable in the Land of Isra'el. These include all statutes connected to the Temple, such as the bringing of the first fruits to Jerusalem, the three pilgrimages made for Passover, Sukkot (Feast of Booths), and Shavu'ot (Feast of Weeks), as well as the test of the woman suspected of adultery (Numbers 5:11-31). Also, all laws concerning the civil government or military, such as those relating to the king, the census, and military customs, are no longer able to be performed. This also includes the laws concerning agriculture and the fruit of the Land, like the tithes to the Levites and the Sabbatical year. Health, purity, and quarantine laws are also no longer in effect outside of the Land. Also, laws concerning the functions of the theocratic State of Isra'el and the courts aren't able to be performed, such as the Jubilee, the blowing of the shofar (ram's horn; trumpet) on Yom Kippur to announce the Jubilee, laws about Jewish servants, laws about the cities of refuge, and corporal punishments and fines.
Besides those which are not able to be applied either for Scriptural reasons (such as sacrifice without the Temple) or for practical/geographical ones, we do believe the Torah is in full effect, so that the rest of the laws do apply.
this is basically my stance on the tanakh that although there are things for obvious reasons that cannot be followed any longer such as the laws of the preisthood and ect the teachings in it are still for us today hence why paul and other NT writters allude to it so much and also why Christ said Matthew 5:17. the law was never to be taken as the means for salvation. in fact salvation was always from God alone. the people of Israel lost sight of this and became legalistic in their ways due to the talmud which is the oral law and their interpretation of torah that became skewed. rabbis started to assert that to understand torah and its meanings it was necessary to know the talmud or oral law. i could get deeper into it but i feel cheezerrox's answer to paul's question sums up what i feel and think considering torah/law. hope what i said and what cheezerrox's post answers any questions you may have had.
Cheezerox
Good question, as I think many assume that because we don't perform all of the commandments (like sacrifice, execution, etc.), that those who are Torah pursuant aren't as committed as they claim to be.
As Gman specified, not all commandments were meant for all people. The commandments pertaining specifically to the kohanim (the priests) are no longer in effect simply because we have no kohanim. In fact, the kahanut (priesthood) has been changed due to the Messiah's Work, as it says at Hebrews 7:11-12, "Now if perfection was through the Levitical preisthood, (for on the basis of it the people received the Torah), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of Torah also." This change is obvious, as Biblical Judaism is ineffective without the priesthood and the sacrifices (although modern non-Messianic Judaism minimizes these concepts). Yet Christianity and Messianic Judaism resolve the issue by asserting that Jesus is our everlasting Priest and our everlasting Sacrifice.
Likewise, sacrifice is impossible now, as it says at Leviticus 1:1-2, "When any man of you brings an offering to Hashem....he shall offer it at the doorway of the Tent of Meeting, that he may be accepted by Hashem." It says again at Deuteronomy 12:5-6, "But you shall seek Hashem at the Place which Hashem your G-d will choose from all your tribes, to establish His Name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come. There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the offerings that you give, your the offerings you have vowed, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock."
Execution is also no longer permitted to be followed, because it can't be performed unless the THEOCRACY of Isra'el exists, and the court (the Sanhedrin) rules in favor of it, and the Sanhedrin doesn't exist right now. Between that and the fact that only members of theocratic nation of Isra'el are subject to the punishment of execution, and not simply anyone who happens to be in the area (note that Deuteronomy 13:6, which speaks about the punishment for a citizen of Isra'el who tries to entice his countrymen to follow other gods, says family members and friends, not strangers or aliens, and Deuteronomy 13:7 mentions that other peoples worship other gods nearby without repurcussion), it would in fact be AGAINST Torah (Exodus 20:13, which forbids unlawful and/or arbitrary taking of life; Deuteronomy 19:15, which requires both multiple witnesses and evidence presented to and investigated by a court) to put anyone to death for any reason at this time.
Also, according to the traditional numeration, 26 of the 613 commandments are only applicable in the Land of Isra'el. These include all statutes connected to the Temple, such as the bringing of the first fruits to Jerusalem, the three pilgrimages made for Passover, Sukkot (Feast of Booths), and Shavu'ot (Feast of Weeks), as well as the test of the woman suspected of adultery (Numbers 5:11-31). Also, all laws concerning the civil government or military, such as those relating to the king, the census, and military customs, are no longer able to be performed. This also includes the laws concerning agriculture and the fruit of the Land, like the tithes to the Levites and the Sabbatical year. Health, purity, and quarantine laws are also no longer in effect outside of the Land. Also, laws concerning the functions of the theocratic State of Isra'el and the courts aren't able to be performed, such as the Jubilee, the blowing of the shofar (ram's horn; trumpet) on Yom Kippur to announce the Jubilee, laws about Jewish servants, laws about the cities of refuge, and corporal punishments and fines.
Besides those which are not able to be applied either for Scriptural reasons (such as sacrifice without the Temple) or for practical/geographical ones, we do believe the Torah is in full effect, so that the rest of the laws do apply.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
1over137 wrote:Why is it heretic site?Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.
FL
The tentmaker site is heretic because it holds to Universalism, or the idea that all men will be saved. The Bible doesn't teach this, period. Also, I've noticed a bizarre tendency you've developed to interpret the Bible allegorically. The allegorical method of biblical interpretation allows you to stuff the Bible with any meaning you like; and, while this is convenient, it isn't intelligent.
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
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1over137
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
Examples of my bizarre tendency?Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:1over137 wrote:Why is it heretic site?Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:That is an heretic site. You are going down a wrong path.1over137 wrote:What is described in tentmaker.org link in my post.
FL
The tentmaker site is heretic because it holds to Universalism, or the idea that all men will be saved. The Bible doesn't teach this, period. Also, I've noticed a bizarre tendency you've developed to interpret the Bible allegorically. The allegorical method of biblical interpretation allows you to stuff the Bible with any meaning you like; and, while this is convenient, it isn't intelligent.
FL
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
On the first page of this topic, you, #1, give credibility to the Tentmaker site; and #2, you agree with them that ''all the prophecies to the Jews were fulfilled by 70AD'' even when that is manifestly not the case. In another topic you started, you accepted a weird explanation about the Sermon on the Mount having to do with the Jews.1over137 wrote:Examples of my bizarre tendency?
I see that you are leaning towards Preterism. I think that as an East European, you must be extra careful when going down an hermenutical road that enforces your culture's historical antisemitism.
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
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1over137
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
Am tired .... Gonna have some break ... And am Middle European ....
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-
Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Matthew 5:17-20
Middle, eastern, whatever. I was using an old Iron Curtain term when I said you were Eastern European. I'm an old man, remember? Anyway, you have to watch out for latent antisemitism that will pervert your faith.1over137 wrote:Am tired .... Gonna have some break ... And am Middle European ....
FL
PS: I'm leaving on a month-long vacation to the USA and I won't always have internet access, so don't expect quick answers from me.
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
+ + +