One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

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One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by PaulSacramento »

It seems that even atheist writers fully admit that the argumement for religion being the primary cause of Wars is, well, incorrect:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... r?page=0,2
Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.

Indeed, inclusive concepts such as "humanity" arguably emerged with the rise of universal religions. Sociologist Rodney Stark reveals that early Christianity became the Roman Empire's majority religion not through conquest, but through a social process grounded in trust. Repeated acts of altruism, such as caring for non-Christians during epidemics, facilitated the expansion of social networks that were invested in the religion. Likewise, studies by behavioral economist Joseph Henrich and colleagues on contemporary foragers, farmers, and herders show that professing a world religion is correlated with greater fairness toward passing strangers. This research helps explain what's going on in sub-Saharan Africa, where Islam is spreading rapidly. In Rwanda, for example, people began converting to Islam in droves after Muslims systematically risked their lives to protect Christians and animists from genocide when few others cared.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by narnia4 »

Atheists will continue to use it, I don't understand how an argument that is obviously factually wrong could be so common... or maybe I could unfortunately.

And even when religion is the "official" reason, honestly I don't always buy that that's the real cause. If a ruler wants more land, wouldn't a good way be to persuade his people that his enemies are evil and/or against their religion? I don't have a specific example in mind, but my point is that the approach used to determine the cause of this or that war by secularists has been without any nuance whatsoever.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Well you maybe right, I mean the whole "Hitler was Christian" thing has been disproven over and over by his own words and some still use it, just as they use the incorrect view that the RCC supported the Nazi regime which has also been shown to be very incorrect, even by Jewish sources of the time ( the likes of Golda Meir, Einstein and others).
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by bippy123 »

They will also continue to ignore the over 200,000 killed in the span of 100 years by atheistic regimes, especially in Russia where they took Russian orthodox priests and tortured them to try to force them to say that God doesn't exist.
Talk about brutality on a huge scale
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by PaulSacramento »

bippy123 wrote:They will also continue to ignore the over 200,000 killed in the span of 100 years by atheistic regimes, especially in Russia where they took Russian orthodox priests and tortured them to try to force them to say that God doesn't exist.
Talk about brutality on a huge scale
I don't like numbers games, no one "wins" with those.
But, the number of deaths attributed to atheistic regimes is in the 10's of millions.
Of course, all that proves is that people kill for any reason at all that they can justify to themselves.
Of course that in of itself is only "bad" if one has a basis to view it as "bad", one can almost argue that the extermination of the "less fit for survival" is just the "natural" course of existence.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by opus649 »

Interesting timing on this post. There are a lot of posts on reddit about 9/11 and "imagine a world without religion" blah blah blah. I find the whole thing curious. I do not understand why (some) atheists attack religion with such... joy. I understand skepticism. I do not understand hatred. Humans are capable of horrific things, regardless of their motivations. Humans are also capable of beautiful acts of kindness, also regardless of their motivations. I really do not think there is any way to quantify the amount of "good" versus "bad" done by human religion, certainly not to the extent to claim so definitively that we'd be "better off" without it. And that's looking at it from a secular point of view!!

I will say this... I think the world would be a much nicer place if everyone followed just one tenet: Luke 6:31
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

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opus649 wrote:Interesting timing on this post. There are a lot of posts on reddit about 9/11 and "imagine a world without religion" blah blah blah. I find the whole thing curious. I do not understand why (some) atheists attack religion with such... joy. I understand skepticism. I do not understand hatred. Humans are capable of horrific things, regardless of their motivations. Humans are also capable of beautiful acts of kindness, also regardless of their motivations. I really do not think there is any way to quantify the amount of "good" versus "bad" done by human religion, certainly not to the extent to claim so definitively that we'd be "better off" without it. And that's looking at it from a secular point of view!!

I will say this... I think the world would be a much nicer place if everyone followed just one tenet: Luke 6:31
Religion is a far more convenient thing to blame than taking responsibility for one's actions and the repercussions that come from them.
Imagine a world without religion? We had that, it was called the USSR and China and Cambodia and the Eastern Block, etc.
Look at these words and see if you can find fault in them:

21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40“If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Is there anything that breaks the circle of hate and violenc other than love and forgiveness?

and this:

4 Love (K)is patient, love is kind and (L)is not jealous; love does not brag and is not (M)arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it (N)does not seek its own, is not provoked, (O)does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 (P)does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but (Q)rejoices with the truth; 7 (R)bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by Ivellious »

I don't think it's fair to say that religion is the reason for many wars/deaths...But I do think it is very true that religion has been a major tool for war leaders throughout history. Most wars are fought over resources/land/power...But throughout history, leaders have utilized the people's religion to manipulate their alliances and motivate or unite the people in favor of their war. In many ancient cultures, the soldiers fought because they believed their gods wished it, or that their God-chosen leader wished it.

In the crusades, all sides involved were probably really fighting over resources and regional dominance. But the people were rallied to do the horrible things they did because they thought that God wanted them to do so.

Today, the best example is probably in the Middle East, with religiously motivated terrorists. The leaders of the Taliban ad other terrorist groups are not likely truly motivated by faith...they want power, they want control, they want everything other leaders want. Religion, however, is a perfect tool to recruit uneducated and desperate citizens to do evil things. Again, in this case, religion is not really the cause of the violence, but it is used as a banner to exploit the desperation of the people with nowhere else to go.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by opus649 »

Ivellious wrote:The leaders of the Taliban ad other terrorist groups are not likely truly motivated by faith...
I am interested in how you are drawing this conclusion.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by Ivellious »

Do you have any reason to suggest that they are truly devout Muslims who just want nothing more than what their religion asks of them? Other than that they say it is?
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Ivellious wrote:I don't think it's fair to say that religion is the reason for many wars/deaths...But I do think it is very true that religion has been a major tool for war leaders throughout history. Most wars are fought over resources/land/power...But throughout history, leaders have utilized the people's religion to manipulate their alliances and motivate or unite the people in favor of their war. In many ancient cultures, the soldiers fought because they believed their gods wished it, or that their God-chosen leader wished it.

In the crusades, all sides involved were probably really fighting over resources and regional dominance. But the people were rallied to do the horrible things they did because they thought that God wanted them to do so.

Today, the best example is probably in the Middle East, with religiously motivated terrorists. The leaders of the Taliban ad other terrorist groups are not likely truly motivated by faith...they want power, they want control, they want everything other leaders want. Religion, however, is a perfect tool to recruit uneducated and desperate citizens to do evil things. Again, in this case, religion is not really the cause of the violence, but it is used as a banner to exploit the desperation of the people with nowhere else to go.
I would agree with this and add that an EDUCATED follower would not, typically, fall for these blatant deceptions.
Honestly, in this day and age, there isn't much of an excuse to NOT question the authority figures of ANY religion.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by Ivellious »

That's very true, Paul. But it is certainly hard for a relatively well-off person in America or europe could understand growing up in Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan. When you essentially grow up in poverty, surrounded by poverty, surrounded by violence (and worse yet, violence from other countries), it probably isn't hard to be swayed into joining up with anyone who offers a way out. It's how the terrorist groups operate in the Middle East. I'm not excusing evil, but the evil falls more on the shoulders of the educated, well-off conspirators than the poor, desperate civilians who they recruit.
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by opus649 »

Ivellious wrote:Do you have any reason to suggest that they are truly devout Muslims who just want nothing more than what their religion asks of them? Other than that they say it is?
I do not believe I was the one who made a positive assertion. I simply asked what lead you to make yours. Are you willing to answer?
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Ivellious wrote:That's very true, Paul. But it is certainly hard for a relatively well-off person in America or europe could understand growing up in Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan. When you essentially grow up in poverty, surrounded by poverty, surrounded by violence (and worse yet, violence from other countries), it probably isn't hard to be swayed into joining up with anyone who offers a way out. It's how the terrorist groups operate in the Middle East. I'm not excusing evil, but the evil falls more on the shoulders of the educated, well-off conspirators than the poor, desperate civilians who they recruit.
Oh I agree, I was aiming more at Europe and the Americas.
But yes, the allure of something better, even if just the afterlife, for someone that has nothing and no way to get out of nothing ( or at least they believe they have nothing) is something very real and concrete.
It is far too easy to use religion to "brain wash" those that have no hope.
Of course we have the case here of people that have "everything" but are still so unfulfilled that they join cults of one type or another.
Some join religious cults because they have tried the "other side" (cults of sex and hedonisism of some sort) and realized there is nothing there, some do the reverse !
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Re: One Atheist argument (finally?) disregarded?

Post by Ivellious »

I do not believe I was the one who made a positive assertion. I simply asked what lead you to make yours. Are you willing to answer?
I suppose here are my reasons for believing "Muslim" extremist and terrorist leaders are not acting out of faith:

Practically speaking, I have never heard of any military leader in the past who acted solely out of religious conviction. Religion may have been an influence, or a rallying point, but a desire for power/wealth/land/resources has been the cause of possibly every major conflict in human history. If you can find some examples where a leader destroyed other people's lives solely based on some religious conviction, do share.

Second, if you actually read Islamic text, there is no order for terrorism or any demand that Muslims annihilate all other people from the world, as some Muslim extremists will say and some ignorant westerners will believe. Jihad has three general meaning; one side is an inner struggle against things in opposition to Islam (essentially the same as a Christian who must struggle with sin and temptation), the struggle to build a proper and good Muslim society as a whole, and the external Jihad, which is rather loosely explained in the Koran. Most Muslim scholars see the Jihad as condoning warfare in defense of Islam and its borders when threatened, not as an offensive assault on all non-believers. This interpretation is supported by other early Muslim texts which set rules for warfare (no killing of women or children, not destroying property or farmland, etc.). In short, any of these leaders claiming to be following through with the Jihad with their terrorism is violating its own rules, so once again, I doubt they honestly care about the Muslim religion.

The fact that the people doing the ground work and putting their lives on the line are by and large exploited, impoverished, and uneducated civilians makes me question why educated and well-off Muslims aren't all for the extremist movements out there right now. If the only people they can recruit are the most desperate and easily manipulated people around, what does that say about the religious legitimacy of your group?

I could go on, but you get the picture.
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