YEC Cult Characteristics?

[RickD]

Sorry, under 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, answers in genesis is a charitable organization, not a church.

[jlay]

Bart,
Was going with what the video said. And it doesnt matter. How does income determine a cult. It doesnt. No more than hovind being in jail. How many apostles went to jail? Of course im not implying hovind an apostle, but the point remains. Just because u agree with the author doesnt make aig a cult.
So far the case is making money, being in jail for tax evasion, being snarky towards OEC and being critical of an OEC view, makes u a cult. I expect more from u guys.

[Canuckster1127]

Bart,
Was going with what the video said. And it doesnt matter. How does income determine a cult. It doesnt. No more than hovind being in jail. How many apostles went to jail? Of course im not implying hovind an apostle, but the point remains. Just because u agree with the author doesnt make aig a cult.
So far the case is making money, being in jail for tax evasion, being snarky towards OEC and being critical of an OEC view, makes u a cult. I expect more from u guys.

There's more in the videos than that. I expect you to disagree. Why not address the issues raised in the video and not attempt to make us the issue, or deflect attention from the substance addressed?

[jlay]

Ive addressed the issues that have been raised in what ive seen so far. Im having to respond when i have time. Are you accusing me of not doing so?

The 1st builds a case against mormonism, jw, heavens gate. It is simply ad-hominem to raise issues about aig's budget or hovinds tax evasion.

I dont appreciate the accusation of deflecting and think it is flat wrong.

[Canuckster1127]

OK, here's some summaries of what he says:

He's approaching this from the perspective of a police officer who has been trained in dealing with people who have been impacted by cults. He notes the following characteristics of cults and cult leaders:

1. Convince followers that everyone else is wrong.
2. Misrepresent God's Word and change what the Bible really means.
3. Mix in just enough of the truth to make the lies believable.
4. Other teachings present a danger to the religion or society as a whole.
5. Warn followers to never listen to other doctrines or they will be deceived.

He mentions of Heavens Gate, Jonestown and the Jehovah's Witnesses as examples and he says that they are extreme. Extremes serve well to illustrate the points he makes above. He is not stating that all cult-like groups and elements go to these extremes.

He does state clearly however that "Here's where I'm going to upset most young earth creationists. In studying the Young Earth Movement, I have recognized the same tactics and techniques being used by the leaders of the young earth movement that I have observed in cults. Not just one or two techniques, but all five major techniques."

He's then going to go through a thorough examination of major Young Earth Dedicated ministries and show direct evidence of these techniques being used.

Bold comment but then, he's basing this on Police Training and he'll show direct evidence.

[Canuckster1127]

Next thing that will anger YEC supporters. Cults are most effective in influencing people who have a limited knowledge of God's Word.

This is where he uses Mormonism as an exampe of otherwise intelligent people who are sucked into that belief system because of a lack of knowledge of basic Biblical truths.

I tend to agree that he's making some rather broad claims here and I believe he overstates things when he goes to the extreme of lumping the Catholic Church in as well.

My linking is not an endorsement of all that he says. That doesn't discount that he may be right on some areas and I'm looking at what he's focusing on here in terms of of specific large YEC leaders and ministries and if he can demonstrate that the same methods are at work here as are at work in what are recognized cults.

[jlay]

1. Convince followers that everyone else is wrong.
2. Misrepresent God's Word and change what the Bible really means.
3. Mix in just enough of the truth to make the lies believable.
4. Other teachings present a danger to the religion or society as a whole.
5. Warn followers to never listen to other doctrines or they will be deceived.

Bart, the problem among others, is I don't know the guy or even if his credentials are legit. Let's assume they are.

#1) This is far too vague. What person who is convinced that they are right and others are wrong wouldn't do this? Would you try to convince a Mormon, Muslim or Atheist they are wrong? Of course.

#2 & #3)First it is question begging. It assumes the YECers in question are lying or misrepresenting. Being OEC, of course you have no issue with this, since, well....you are also OEC. Do you really thing that YECers knowinly misrepresent God's word? Whether I agree with Ham and Jason Lisle, I do not think they are intentionally misrepresenting God's word. Unlike jim Jones, or JWs or Mormons, they do not attempt to coerce believers into a particular church group, or to be under the head of some dominating religious authority.

#4) Do you think someone saying that Jesus death and resurrection are metaphorical would present a danger to religion as a whole? Not saying the two issues are equal, but I mean, let's be real here. As already stated by Jac and myself, of course they see 'millions of years' as a danger, based on what they genuinely believe.

#5) Is this guy not in essence warning people not to listen to AIG or they will be decieved? I've listened and read a lot of AIG material. I've also listened to and read a lot of OEC material, as well as much from the main page of this site. I see much of the same, 'warnings.' I have studied cults for many years, particularly JWs and Mormons. I am familiar also familiar with many of the endoctrination techniques used in the smaller cults such as Branch Davidians, heaven's gate, etc. maybe his check points are what is used by law enforcement, but I'm guessing he is leaving out a BUNCH of other evidences.

Whether there are cults that incorporate YEC as an integral tenet I don't know. But to this point I don't see how he has even remotely demonstrated that AIG fits this at all.

[Canuckster1127]

Then again, you haven't watched the whole thing.

I think he does a reasonably good job of supporting his premise and demonstrating it in his presentation, most of which is AIG.

Interestingly at the end he brings up personal experience with Ken Ham at Home Schooling Conferences (perhaps before Ken Ham was removed from several.)

As long as he's sincerely convinced that he's right then it's certainly understandable that he'd look at YECs in this way. I mean that's what we're told as OECs to do right? Why the hard feelings? Just because we're told we destroy Biblical inerrency and the Gospel? It's just a friendly little observation that YECs are cult-like.

[RickD]

As long as he's sincerely convinced that he's right then it's certainly understandable that he'd look at YECs in this way. I mean that's what we're told as OECs to do right? Why the hard feelings? Just because we're told we destroy Biblical inerrency and the Gospel? It's just a friendly little observation that YECs are cult-like.

The speaker in the video genuinely, and sincerely believes AIG has the characteristics of a cult. The speaker really, really, really, really, really thinks AIG is cult-like. He honestly believes it, so what else is he supposed to say?

[jlay]

Actually Rick, that's a very good point.
The next question is, has he presented a case that proves it? As Jac mentioned, i think AIG presents the case, that if they are in fact right, then OEC is a compromise.
For example, AIG doesn't spend a bunch of time exposing confirmed false doctrines, and then try to conflate that to OEC. At least AIG deals directly with the text and evidence at hand.

Yall can joke about it all you want, but when someone implies (even in the slightest) that YEC (being critical of OEC) is a cult, then I stop laughing.

[Canuckster1127]

Welcome to the club Jlay. Maybe now you understand why OECs stop laughing at the charges that come from AIG and other extreme YEC groups.

[jlay]

Welcome to the club Jlay. Maybe now you understand why OECs stop laughing at the charges that come from AIG and other extreme YEC groups.

Tu quoque

Keep losing my post because not on normal computer. Needless to say, video two proves nothing, other than what we already know. YEC and OEC disagree. the issue is CULT, not whether YEC is wrong in some interpretations. He accuses knowing, willful and intentional deception, because these YECers don't accept his "obviuos" conclusions.

Here is his case. You agree with me on this, this, this, and this, therefore you should agree that AIG is a cult. I wouldn't expect OECers to disagree with his assessment of some of the YEC positions here. but how does that make it a cult? Video one and two don't do this at all. Is there any ground breaking expose that shows that Ham is intentionally, knowingly and willfully preaching something he himself doesn't genuinely believe, with the intent on endoctrinating people into a cult?

[RickD]

Jlay, let me ask you this. If Ken Ham's YEC interpretation is correct, and there was no animal death before Adam's sin, then according to Ham, OEC compromises scripture. Would it be fair to say, using that same logic, that if Ham's interpretation is wrong, and there was animal death before Adam's sin, then Ham is Compromising scripture?

[Ivellious]

Just to randomly plug my two cents in on whether YEC's are cultists...

Clearly, I believe that the YEC viewpoint is woefully incorrect. I also believe that, like televangelists and charismatic faith healers, many YEC organizations and their leaders do show a great deal of cult-like attributes. I'm not sure if they are truly cults, because typically a true cult is a more tight-knit group and I seriously doubt that Ken Ham or Hovind have such a following that is destructive or harms the people involved (make them more ignorant and closed-minded? Perhaps, but that's up for debate). I can simply see how many charismatic Christian leaders do utilize cultist strategies to gain a following and reap the monetary benefits and fame. And clearly, regardless of whether they think they are right or not, I think such behavior is shameful.

However, the thing I do disagree with in regards to these videos is the notion that all YEC people are part of this "cult." I would disagree. I think there are plenty YEC Christians who don't give a damn about Hovind or Ham, and who are reasonably intelligent people who simply have a belief. I don't think it's fair to simply judge different sects if a religion for their beliefs, especially when you start throwing around the label of 'cult" onto them. Again, I just want to distinguish that me saying that YEC leaders act like cult leaders does NOT mean I'm calling YEC Christians cultists. that is the point that I disagree with these videos on.

Same goes as far as I'm concerned with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Look, they might not be "Christians" in the strictest sense of the word, but labeling them as cults is extremely prejudicial to me. I don't really care what they or anyone else believes, so long as they aren't sacrificing people or abusing children or what-have-you (though I must admit some small groups or Mormons do abuse children and that I plainly disagree with).

[RickD]

Same goes as far as I'm concerned with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Look, they might not be "Christians" in the strictest sense of the word, but labeling them as cults is extremely prejudicial to me.

Ivellious, you have to understand that according to the historic doctrines of orthodox Christianity, any group that deviates from those essential doctrines, is a Christian cult. So, JW and Mormonism are Christian cults.

I don't really care what they or anyone else believes, so long as they aren't sacrificing people or abusing children or what-have-you (though I must admit some small groups or Mormons do abuse children and that I plainly disagree with).

Again, we're talking about "Christian cults". And how these groups beliefs deviate from the doctrines Of historic orthodox Christianity. We're not necessarily talking about cults in the sense of a group of a bunch of weirdos living in a compound somewhere, whose leader is brainwashing members.