snorider wrote:Psalm 22[a]Icthus wrote:This. Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm that ends triumphantly. By invoking it, you could say, Jesus was actually claiming victory.PaulSacramento wrote:Jesus was quoting psalm 22:1 for those that could hear Him and understand.
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
What part of this exactly were you talking about? Jesus crying out why Lord?
Why would the Lord, creator of the entire universe first of all need to send a mortal son?
He created the entire Universe, whoops forgot about that whole creating man with free will sin thing need to create a mortal son that dies unknowingly to correct it.
We were talking about the whole psalm actually. Giving the first phrase was a way of invoking the psalm in its entirety, a psalm that was believed to be Messianic. I have no idea why you persist in claiming that Jesus died "unknowingly" when we've said repeatedly that he clearly did know what was up. Your suggestion that his words on the cross mean he didn't know what was going on don't even make sense. Why would the authors of the NT include that phrase if they thought it proved he wasn't divine? As for your remarks about grown men and the Easter Bunny, I suppose I am a "grown man" at 22, and no, I do not believe in the Easter Bunny. There is no comparison between believing in Jesus and believing in magical rabbits that come around on Easter and give out eggs. Jesus was clearly a historical person, as just about everybody accepts, and certain facts agreed upon by a solid majority of historical scholars (such as that he was crucified, that his tomb was likely found empty, that his disciples and even some enemies like Paul had experiences that they believed were sightings of a physically resurrected and transformed Jesus, and that within a very short time a religion focused on these highly public claims emerged) strongly suggest that he physically rose from the dead and alternate theories have failed spectacularly to account for these facts.
Also, Jesus was not "created" as he is God. He existed before sin did.
I'm sorry to say so, but you are not provoking thought. Most of us (I know I have) have heard the objections you've made before and consider them to be easily answered. I don't want to label you without actually knowing you, but to me you sound like dozens of other skeptics I've met, who seem to believe that they exist in a Biblical knowledge vacuum and that all they need to refute thousands of years of thought from some of the greatest minds in history is a copy of the Bible in English, the great wasteland that is the internet, and a sufficient amount of self assurance. They think they can enter the debate with an amateurish understanding of the Bible, little to no knowledge of context, and no regard for the work of those who know better, when, quite unsurprisingly, they can't. Arguments like "believing in Jesus is like believing in the Easter Bunny" or "Jesus says in the Bible that God has given up on him: he clearly didn't know what was going on" are the sort of thing peddled endlessly by New Atheist types like Dawkins or Harris that have no more credibility in the religious arena than Hovind and Ham have in the scientific arena.
Your question about whether or not we share the faith of our siblings/family is teetering on the edge of the genetic fallacy. The fact that many people share the beliefs of those around them does nothing to prove them false, nor does the existence of multiple viewpoints prove that one isn't correct. Christians have many reasons for considering our beliefs to be correct. Number one is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (for which we have quite a bit of evidence and don't have to take on blind faith). In addition, we have numerous archaeological finds confirming details of the Biblical world and the work of great textual critics, which shows that the New Testament is textually reliable. From a philosophical point of view, we have arguments developed over thousands of years that attempt to demonstrate the metaphysical necessity of a God whose nature is like that of the Christian God. If you care to look, there's actually quite a lot of evidence for Christianity (and I don't even accept design arguments, presuppositional apologetics, or arguments from inerrancy).
