Shroud of Turin

[Pierson5]

Thank you both for the kind words and citations (bippy).

Philip, what's your take on say, someone who is ignorant about the rules you put forth (someone who has never seen, or heard of the Christian Bible)? Such as isolated populations of people. What happens to them?

Bippy,
I thought I'd bring up the invisible re-weave hypothesis you quoted earlier ( http://shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf [Entry 39] ). According to: http://withoutatrace.com/reweaving.html

French Reweave
Also known as the Invisible Weave, this technique is done on select fabrics with small tears, holes and burns. Individual thread strands from hidden areas, such as a cuff or inseam, are actually woven together by hand. This creates new fabric as it closes the hole and the repair is virtually indistinguishable from the surrounding fabric.

It appears this technique uses actual cloth from the original garment itself. So this would not have any affect on the C14 dating methods.

Thoughts?

[bippy123]

Pierson,Rogers detected cotton that was not indicative of the rest of the shroud in one of his end over end splices, plus Rogers had samples from all areas of the shroud which didn't show this.
He also found dyes indicative of middle age dying techniques (madder dye), and on top of that the chemical composition of that one area was clearly proven to be different then the rest of the shroud .
Add to that the vanillin test of this area came out positive compared to a negative for every other area of the shroud seals the deal.
This definitely , amongst other evidences proves that theorist if the shroud is much much older than the c14 sample.
Remember also the first unofficial c14 test from an area very close by showed it to be from 200ad .

The people that were in charge of the c14 testing ignored the 26 recommendations made by the more experienced sturp team and didn't even perform chemical composition tests on even the different strands of the shroud that were available.
To conclude, the c14 sample was found to be chemically different and younger than the rest of the shroud. This was proven by science.

[bippy123]

Thank you both for the kind words and citations (bippy).

Philip, what's your take on say, someone who is ignorant about the rules you put forth (someone who has never seen, or heard of the Christian Bible)? Such as isolated populations of people. What happens to them?

Your very welcome my friend:)
I believe that most Christians feel the same about this area, Im catholic and the church believes that anyone who did not have the chance to be properly introduced to the gospels would be shown mercy by the God of love. I believe most Christian denominations believe this (correct me if im wrong anyone) except for Calvinists who believe that Man has no feel will and that God predetermined who would be a believer and not a believer, which reduces God to a tyrant, but no where in Christian history has any church except for calvinists believe this.

Pierson but u can no longer use this argument with God as you are here and have started to discover him. You are starting to see God as most Christians know him. Do you think maybe Christ might have a foot in the door? Who knows, maybe a knock is next.

On a good note my mom just had more tests done on her and she can now feel pain in both arms, which shows she has some feeling now on both areas, but she hasnt moved much yet. Ucsd did the initial tests a few months back, that is why I know they have a great medical facility. Your in Good hands there Pierson.

[Philip]

Hello, Pierson.

I have written my thoughts about those without the Gospel, rather extensively: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... +Cornelius

And, in addition to the info in the above posted link, might I also stress that those rejecting God include the majority of those in our modern, Western and "Christian" world. In America, there are churches on virtually every block or so. Bibles everywhere. The internet blasts the Gospel and apologetics around the world, 24/7. And still, even though loaded up with information from theologians, scholars, etc, etc - people STILL refuse to believe. Jesus did phenomenal miracles for three years in ancient Israel - made blind men see and the lame-from-birth walk. But it wasn't enough - they refused to truly believe. Why, because people didn't want to make Jesus, LORD - as that would mean they could no longer be their own arbitrators of right and wrong, of their own conduct. And so Jesus did all these miracles, but nonetheless was brutally killed, in the midst of the very people He came to save.

God used sensational miracles to free Israel from over 400 years of bondage in Egypt - takes them out of Egypt with their pockets full of gold, insures their release without them having to raise the first sword. God parts the Red Sea, drowns Pharaoh's pursuing army, leads them by fire and cloud, provides manna, etc. And so God had miraculously freed and saved Israel through an amazing series of incredible miracles - which they all saw, first hand. But just how long was Moses out of camp before they were whining and grumbling, and subsequently building a Golden Calf to worship - pursuing a determination to bow down to a false golden god created by their very own hands? Not long AT ALL!

Point is, people don't reject God because they don't have enough information - as He'll provide them with whatever they sincerely seek or they truly need, so as to believe - but He'll often give no more than whatever that might be. God created a universe, and so there is NO jungle that He can't find a way to reach them in - although we may not always see exactly how He does this. But make no mistake about it, there are NO barriers that God cannot overcome, certainly not for those who truly want to know about Him. But people use their sometimes lack of information as an excuse to not seek it - or to not seek MORE. Or when they have sufficient information/The Gospel, they often choose to ignore it - or refuse to believe it. What people usually have isn't an INFORMATION problem - it's a HEART problem! People have hard hearts which they refuse to open. And they have additionally closed off their minds to revealed truths - especially as they relate to GOD'S truths!

Hope these help!



Philip

[bippy123]

Pierson this is kind of off topic but could I ask you a question? The church that your girlfriend is currently attending, are they the fire and brimestone kind of church or do they teach about Gods love for us? Have you asked her this?

[bippy123]

The night of the shroud wins some major documentary awards.
This documentary focuses just on the atmosphere surrounding the 1988 c-14 testing of the shroud and the different power struggles of the different groups involved. It will be available for purchase sometime in the mid to late fall online. Extremely important documentary. One of the speakers is the lady that played satan in the passion of the Christ . As soon as anyone sees this available online please post the link to it .

http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm#night

We are very pleased to announce that the long-awaited documentary, "The Night of the Shroud" (La Notte della Sindone) directed by Francesca Saracino and produced by Paolo Monaci, with noted film actress Rosalinda Celentano serving as the host of the program, took three top honors at the Los Angeles Movie Awards in June. Winning awards for Best Documentary Feature, Best Director, and Best Visual Effects, the program takes the viewer behind the scenes of the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud and reveals details never before made public. The film was given a special screening at the Valencia Shroud Congress in April, which also marked its premiere in Spain. Viewers may recognize Rosalinda from her most notable role as the devil in Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ."

Francesca reports that, "The DVD is ready for distribution and will be released in the fall here in Italy and contains the English version as well." I will post the information on this website as soon RAI, the program's distributor, makes it available for purchase online.

Posted August 26, 2012

[DRDS]

Got a quick question for the "Bipmeister" do most Shroud researchers who think the Shroud is authentic believe the image is of Christ's earthly body or is it of Christ's resurrected body during the first microseconds that Christ's body transformed from a earthly body into His resurrected body? I mean, which one basically are we looking at when we see the Shroud? Christ's earthly body or Christ's resurrected body? Because for one, it could be his earthly body because it clearly shows all the wounds, scars, bruises and so on. But we have to take into account that since Christ eternally bares the scars from the crucifixion, it could very well be his resurrected body. So I was just curious as to what you think and what the top researchers think. Thanks man, GB.

[bippy123]

Got a quick question for the "Bipmeister" do most Shroud researchers who think the Shroud is authentic believe the image is of Christ's earthly body or is it of Christ's resurrected body during the first microseconds that Christ's body transformed from a earthly body into His resurrected body? I mean, which one basically are we looking at when we see the Shroud? Christ's earthly body or Christ's resurrected body? Because for one, it could be his earthly body because it clearly shows all the wounds, scars, bruises and so on. But we have to take into account that since Christ eternally bares the scars from the crucifixion, it could very well be his resurrected body. So I was just curious as to what you think and what the top researchers think. Thanks man, GB.

Great question buddy. I believe people like physicist John Jackson believes that the image was caused as Jesus went through the resurrection process and his cloth collapse theory even predicted the second more faint face image that was not discovered until they took off the back stiching from the back side of the cloth, but as far as it being his glorified body or the last millisecond before his body became glorified I'm not sure. The undisturbed blood clots tell us that Jesus had to have come off the shroud in a very unnatural way, and with Jackson's theory Jesus's body had to have gone through some type of dimensional phase shift as it passed through the cloth.

DRDS, I thought that I went through every question possible in my mind about the shroud but this is one that I never thought about, but I think that the image probably was made right before his body became glorified because the image shows him to still have his eyes closed and he was still in rigor mortis, so I tend to think it was that millisecond right before his body became glorified.
You really blew me away with that question dude
Great work

P.S. It kinda makes you think again about the Transfiguration that took place with Jesus's body on the mountain where his body was said to have shined brighter than even the sun and he talked with Moses and Elijah.
I remember reading an article from a physicists (she wasn't talking about the shroud in any way) where she believed that Jesus's atoms vibrated so fast that he was able to temporarily enter the dimension of eternity (heaven). Interesting . I just wish I could remember her name.

It makes me think that what happened at the transfiguration might have been similar to what happened at the resurrection. I remembered particle physicist dame piscek talked about no gravity being present at the point of the resurrection. The problem with Miss Dame's theory is that it's beyond my comprehension.
I just wishes that someone could better explain it to laymen like me lol.

[Pierson5]

Pierson this is kind of off topic but could I ask you a question? The church that your girlfriend is currently attending, are they the fire and brimestone kind of church or do they teach about Gods love for us? Have you asked her this?

Not a problem. Well, she only attends during holidays with her family (Easter/Christmas, etc...). She says they are not the type of church I'm worried about, but I have never been (I spend the holidays with my family in another area), so I wouldn't know. I did ask her this question when we first discussed how we would possibly raise children if/when we had them. After my discussions with you guy's I think I've eased up on the topic a bit. Especially considering she would only be taking the child to church a few days out of the year. I doubt fire and brimstone is a hot topic during Easter

Also, I'm reading through the forum you linked to earlier, as well as the one on the JREF. If I have any concerns, I'll be sure to post them. As of now, the basic arguments (supported by evidence/publications) are:

Anti-authenticity:
The C14 dates are accurate
McCrone's data shows no blood

Pro-authenticity:
Roger's publication shows the dates could be wrong
Heller/Adler shows blood

[bippy123]

well i'm its not of the fire and brimestone variety (whew). And yes those 2 are parts of the pros and cons. I remember that you brought 3 of the publications that Mccrone had his work in and 2 of the 3 werent peer reviewed. I remember reading a critique on the 3rd one in which mccrones work was more about methodology then the evidence since he longer had the samples with him when he submitted to this publication. the post is found in that link I gave you in that debate forum over mccrone's work so you will see it there.
As far as Rogers work, Rogers says the dating IS WRONG (not could be wrong).
And Adler and Hellers work is much more sofisticated then Mccrones work and involved 1000's of tests.

Remember also that there is a clear forensic connection between the shroud and sudarium. This is also why most of the experts had grave reservations about the c14 dating . Forensic experts determined that the shroud and sudarium both went over the same body in very close time intervals (45 minutes to an hour seperated both of them), and the sudarium has an undisputed history going all the way back to the late 6th - 7th century, and the vignon iconographs that started during during the mid century that have multiple congruent points with the shroud.

Also the hungarian pray codex illustration of the shroud from the late 1100's.

[bippy123]

Adler in response to Mccrone's claim that he found no blood on the shroud.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... 8.html?m=1

Adler was asked how he could answer McCrone's claim that there was no blood, but merely a mixture of red ocher and vermilion. Adler flashed on the screen the following table from our paper. Table 5 Tests confirming the presence of whole blood on the Shroud 1. High iron in blood areas by X-ray fluorescence 2. Indicative reflection spectra 3. Indicative microspectrophotometric transmission spectra 4. Chemical generation of characteristic porphyrin fluorescence 5. Positive hemochromogen tests 6. Positive cyanomethemoglobin tests 7. Positive detection of bile pigments 8. Positive demonstration of protein 9. Positive indication of albumin 10. Protease tests, leaving no residue 11. Positive immunological test for human albumin 12. Microscopic appearance as compared with appropriate controls 13. Forensic judgment of the appearance of the various wound and blood marks Then, after explaining each item briefly, Al said, `That means that the red stuff on the Shroud is emphatically, and without any reservation, nothing else but B-L-O-O-D!'" (Heller, 1983, pp.215-216).

[bippy123]

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... n.html?m=1

A brilliant blog post on how the shroud of Turin is the image of edessa spoken of in the acts of thaddeus of the 6th century, in which it was written that the image was on a sindon(single cloth) that was doubled 4 times (tetradipion), and I've included below links that show professor John Jackson tests that show the exact tetradipion folding creases he found . Stephen Jones has a great no nonsense shroud blog packed with great information.



http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/Defini ... iplon.html

In 1978, John Jackson, a physicist at the Air Force Academy in Colorado, found persistent fold marks showing that the shroud had been folded as a tetradiplon. 

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html

Dr. John Jackson's raking light test of 1978 confirms fold marks matching tetradiplon.

[bippy123]

Stephen Jones has done it again with this blog article, showing more incredibly compelling evidence that the image of edessa from the 500's is in fact the shroud of turin.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... in_22.html

Stephen is now my favorite shroud source online to go to. I would suggest anyone that is new to the shroud or wanting to learn more to go through the plethora of information that Stephen has accumulated on the shroud.

[bippy123]

Pierson, this blog post will help to better explain why the blood clots themselves are a sign of the resurrection . Stephen Jones does it again.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au ... s.html?m=1

5. The blood clots are intact on the Shroud, so the forger could not have smeared the clots as he placed the blood-stained linen shroud over a hot statue nor when he separated the linen sheet from the statue:

"The second sign of the resurrection on the Shroud concerns the body's removal from the cloth. The facts militate against the body being removed from the Shroud by any human means because the bloodstains are intact. As we saw earlier, each bloodstain is characterized by anatomical correctness, including precisely outlined borders, with blood clots intact. If the cloth had been removed from the body, the blood clots would have smeared or broken. This precludes any separation of the body from the cloth by normal means. A moment's reflection will reveal some of the medical reasoning here. When the linen was wrapped lengthwise around Jesus' body, it contacted the shed blood flowing from the head, the open chest wound, and the left wrist, feet, and elsewhere. As the blood dried, the linen would have become loosely attached to the wounds. Removing the Shroud, however carefully, would require both the removal of blood clots and the disturbing of the edges of the bloodstains. Since this did not happen with the Shroud, we may assert the probability that the body left the cloth in some way other than normal unwrapping of the Shroud. The contact bloodstains indicate that the body was not moved, rewrapped, of unwrapped. " (Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, p.156).

"The Man of the Shroud separated perfectly from the Shroud, with a technic which has left the imprints of blood clots on the fabric without leaving smears or streaks of blood, as would have happened if the clots had been moist, and without flaking or impairing these clots as would have happened if they had been dry." (Zeuli, T., "Jesus Christ is the Man of the Shroud," Shroud Spectrum International, Vol. 3, No. 10, March 1984, pp.32-33).

[Philip]

OK, Bipster, don't explode, but look what Fox News lists today as a religious hoax (2nd one down): http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/10/ ... p=features

You might want to send the perps some key refuting evidences.