Jesus is YHVH??

[RickD]

Ah Rick...
Translations...wanna know how the JW's deal with Hebrews 1:8?
Here is THEIR translation:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

I see. But Paul, 1stjohn0666 isn't a JW. He claims to follow scripture, and I'm sure he wouldn't just accept the JW translation to suit his beliefs about Jesus. Let's give 1stjohn0666 the benefit of doubt. How can he deny possibly the three most common Christian translations(NIV, NASB, and KJV) all say that Jesus is God in Hebrews 1:8.

Well 1stjohn0666, Is Paul correct that you will hold to The JW translation? Or, are you open to see the truth as so obvious in Hebrews 1:8 that the Son is indeed God?

[PaulSacramento]

Ah Rick...
Translations...wanna know how the JW's deal with Hebrews 1:8?
Here is THEIR translation:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

I see. But Paul, 1stjohn0666 isn't a JW. He claims to follow scripture, and I'm sure he wouldn't just accept the JW translation to suit his beliefs about Jesus. Let's give 1stjohn0666 the benefit of doubt. How can he deny possibly the three most common Christian translations(NIV, NASB, and KJV) all say that Jesus is God in Hebrews 1:8.

Well 1stjohn0666, Is Paul correct that you will hold to The JW translation? Or, are you open to see the truth as so obvious in Hebrews 1:8 that the Son is indeed God?

See, the issue isn't the translation, its the bias going INTO the translation.
John has already showed, with his view on proskueno, that the theological basis he comes into the translation to, is what dictates how a word or verse is to be translated or accepted as correct.
Now, the JW's made their own translation because they were being questioned in the exact same way, How cna one question Jesus being God ( as in God the Son) is so many passages make it clear ( John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1:8 for example)?
Simple, you re-translated them YOUR way ( John 1:1 becomes "...and the word was a god").
Pre-established theological doctrine ( Jesus is a created being) trumps biblical translation of undisputed texts showing him to be " the exact form of God".

[RickD]

Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:

9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:

9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?

The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.

[Thwarp]

I think the first step in understanding this is to accept that everytime God spoke/showed Himself in the OT, it was Jesus.

Agreed! Absolutely paramount !

The Book I mentioned above does exactly that.

[1stjohn0666]

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6,7. I interpret Hebrews 1:8 with Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Jesus if God "therefore God, your God" does not make sense. This would imply polytheism at it's core. Or at least as I see it.

[RickD]

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6,7. I interpret Hebrews 1:8 with Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Jesus if God "therefore God, your God" does not make sense. This would imply polytheism at it's core. Or at least as I see it.

What about verse 10? Hebrews 1:10:
10 And
          “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
          AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Jesus is Lord. And, Jesus created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. John, you really don't see this?

[RickD]

Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:

9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?

The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.

Wow, talk about reading one's theology into scripture! That thar is sum scriptural gymnasteeks!

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:

9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?

The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.

Wow, talk about reading one's theology into scripture! That thar is sum scriptural gymnasteeks!

One of the many reasons I never became a JW.

[Thwarp]

One of the many reason's I'm glad the Lord never allowed me to even succumb to the JW's. Pray for them because it could very well have been you. There but for the Grace of God go "US"

[RickD]

One of the many reason's I'm glad the Lord never allowed me to even succumb to the JW's. Pray for them because it could very well have been you. There but for the Grace of God go "US"

Twarp, I disagree. It should be, "There but for the Grace of God, go 'we'."

[1stjohn0666]

Hebrews 1:13 Removes the JW teaching that Jesus was ever an angel..... gotta love it.
I will be back shortly with Hebrews 1:10 and what I see of the scrip is directly quoted from the Greek Septuagint LXX of Psalm 102
My favorite version of scripture however, still is the LXX

[1stjohn0666]

Hebrews 1:10-13 with the context of Psalm 102 is the kingdom to come, not the creation at the beginning of time. We go on a little, Hebrews 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

[bippy123]

For me Isaiah 9-6 tells me all I need to know about the jehovas witnesses.

Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[PaulSacramento]

To me its the Immanuel part.
That He would be called "God amongst us" kind of makes a huge statement, know what I mean?