Reason vs. Spanking

[ochotseat]

I know that OC but you are the one that made this into a Debate instead of taking it for what it was a Joke.

She shouldn't have started questioning corporal punishment then.

[kateliz]

Ya know, ocho, I did a pretty thorough Bible study on the word "rod" that used in Psalms regarding disciplining children. Turns out it does not refer to spanking with a stick! The Bible does not support measures like spanking in the verses people say it does.

But don't get me wrong, I have and would again any time physically restrain a child by pinning their arms, legs and head all at once. If a child cannot appropriately control their own limbs, I will do it for them while speaking in a calm voice, telling them that when they stop I will let go. I'm all for severe measures if they're needed; I don't shy from them. But spanking is unreasonable and unbiblical measure that unskilled disciplinarians take for lack of a better one.

Also, I was spanked as a child, and so I'm not ignorant of what goes on in kids' minds about it. It's just not effective in the long-run.

[bizzt]

Also, I was spanked as a child, and so I'm not ignorant of what goes on in kids' minds about it. It's just not effective in the long-run.

It worked for me!!

[Felgar]

I'm all for severe measures if they're needed; I don't shy from them. But spanking is unreasonable and unbiblical measure that unskilled disciplinarians take for lack of a better one.

Can't stay out of this one anymore... I disagree Kateliz. Spanking is appropriate and effective; hitting your child is something else and is unnacceptable. You are equating the two, and then drawing faulty conclusions as a result of your faulty assumption.

Some of the differences are: Hitting is an emotional response and is likely done in anger. Spanking is done in a loving manner under full control. Hitting can inflict physical harm, whereas spanking inflicts temporary pain while ensuring that no actual harm comes to the child - there's a reason why one spanks a rear-end.

From all of the children that I've seen, the ones who are spanked in the proper manner are by far the best behaved and most well-balanced psychologically. The fact that a parent has the capability to repremand a child is very much a part of building a healthy relationship of love and respect between children and their parents. When the child is calm and happy, the child should know that the parent is doing what is right. Kids aren't stupid - they know when they are disobeying, and they kow full well the consequences of that. If those consequences are known and known to be unpleasant, then the child behaves accordingly. But the child soon learns when their parent will not accept the role of disciplining them, and will then behave as such.

Now, with that relationship of respect established, it becomes unecessary to actual spank a child in the vast majority of cases. A warning system can be put in place, with the understanding that the parent has the fortitude to follow through - and then it wil be effective. Without the parent-child relationship properly established, a time-out or other forms of reprimand will be ineffective.

Oh and the last thing. The child must know FULLY when they are doing something that will get them spanked. There must be a clear link between the child's behaviour and the spanking. If the child feels that they cannot control whether they are spanked, then the emotional response will be one of fear rather than respect for authority. Again, this is a clear distinction between hitting emotionally and spanking.

You referenced Crash Test Mommy before... I've never watched it much, but I bet the replacement mommy doesn't have the authority to spank the child. If so, it's no wonder disaster ensues.

[bizzt]

I'm all for severe measures if they're needed; I don't shy from them. But spanking is unreasonable and unbiblical measure that unskilled disciplinarians take for lack of a better one.

Can't stay out of this one anymore... I disagree Kateliz. Spanking is appropriate and effective; hitting your child is something else and is unnacceptable. You are equating the two, and then drawing faulty conclusions as a result of your faulty assumption.

Some of the differences are: Hitting is an emotional response and is likely done in anger. Spanking is done in a loving manner under full control. Hitting can inflict physical harm, whereas spanking inflicts temporary pain while ensuring that no actual harm comes to the child - there's a reason why one spanks a rear-end.

From all of the children that I've seen, the ones who are spanked in the proper manner are by far the best behaved and most well-balanced psychologically. The fact that a parent has the capability to repremand a child is very much a part of building a healthy relationship of love and respect between children and their parents. When the child is calm and happy, the child should know that the parent is doing what is right. Kids aren't stupid - they know when they are disobeying, and they kow full well the consequences of that. If those consequences are known and known to be unpleasant, then the child behaves accordingly. But the child soon learns when their parent will not accept the role of disciplining them, and will then behave as such.

Now, with that relationship of respect established, it becomes unecessary to actual spank a child in the vast majority of cases. A warning system can be put in place, with the understanding that the parent has the fortitude to follow through - and then it wil be effective. Without the parent-child relationship properly established, a time-out or other forms of reprimand will be ineffective.

Oh and the last thing. The child must know FULLY when they are doing something that will get them spanked. There must be a clear link between the child's behaviour and the spanking. If the child feels that they cannot control whether they are spanked, then the emotional response will be one of fear rather than respect for authority. Again, this is a clear distinction between hitting emotionally and spanking.

You referenced Crash Test Mommy before... I've never watched it much, but I bet the replacement mommy doesn't have the authority to spank the child. If so, it's no wonder disaster ensues.

I agree with what you say Felgar however there is other Alternatives to Spanking that can be Adhered to. For Example Nanny 911 uses these Methods. The Naughty Corner... There is always other ways but I do believe Spanking can also be a Useful Tool but ONLY out of Love for the Child

[Felgar]

I agree with what you say Felgar however there is other Alternatives to Spanking that can be Adhered to. For Example Nanny 911 uses these Methods. The Naughty Corner... There is always other ways but I do believe Spanking can also be a Useful Tool but ONLY out of Love for the Child

And I agree with that as well. I did try to say how I think those alternatives will be more effective if the child knows that it can escalate from there to a spanking.

In the end the key to punishment is love and consistency. The child needs the consistency in order to properly equate punishment with disobedience.

I also think that spanking should be tapered off as the child gets older. When the child can properly reason then it is no longer required. But at least when that time comes the child will have the appropriate respect to heed what you tell them, and to understand that you still have their own best interests at heart.

[Prodigal Son]

i continue to disagree. if i hit anyone here in a loving, respectful, and controlled manner to cause temporary pain and effect proper/moral change, they'd yell assault, feel ashamed, angry, hurt, shocked, and who knows what else. spanking is immature behavior and completely unacceptable in any form. to accept it is to perpetuate the idea that children are not people, do not have the same emotions as adults, and do not deserve the same respect.

[bizzt]

if i hit anyone here in a loving, respectful, and controlled manner to cause temporary pain and effect proper/moral change, they'd yell assault, feel ashamed, angry, hurt, shocked, and who knows what else. spanking is immature behavior and completely unacceptable in any form. to accept it is to perpetuate the idea that children are not people, do not have the same emotions as adults, and do not deserve the same respect.

I do respect your Disagreement Prodigal but when I grew up which was not that long ago I had maybe 3 Spankings. I did not warrant any others because I was a fairly silent Child and quite Mature for My Age. However I do not think spanking a Child on Rump would affect the Child Emotionally ESPECIALLY if you already live in a Loving Family! If the Child already knows he is loved and gets a Spanking and is told why he/she got the spanking there should be no Assault, Ashamed, angry, hurt or shocked Feelings as the Child knows he/she has done wrong. However I do believe that you can put a Child in the Naughty Corner and this should Effectively solve the problem without using Spanking.

[Prodigal Son]

exactly. other methods are available and should be used. if anyone can give an example where a spanking will prevail over alternate methods, i'd like to hear it.

http://www.Kidsource.com/kidsource/cont ... morph.html

http://ceep.crc.uiuc.edu/eecearchive/di ... sbu97.html

http://library.adoption.com/Discipline/ ... 253/1.html

http://www.nospank.net/n-d66.htm

ocho:

i wonder why you deplore discipline so much.

no need to wonder, i'll tell you: i don't deplore discipline. i deplore corporal punishment. i deplore it because it is immature, ineffective, and wrong. not very confusing.

[ochotseat]

Ya know, ocho, I did a pretty thorough Bible study on the word "rod" that used in Psalms regarding disciplining children. Turns out it does not refer to spanking with a stick! The Bible does not support measures like spanking in the verses people say it does.
.

Nice try, but no cigar.

http://www.christian-parents.net/Childr ... ildren.htm

Yet, God's Word still stands as the tried and true way to rear children. This of course includes the mandatory use of parental discipline that includes spanking a child. Listen to this collage of good advice on child rearing in the Bible. We read in,

Proverbs 22:6 (NLT) "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."

Colossians 3:20 (NLT) "You children must always obey your parents, for this is what pleases the Lord."

Ephesians 6:2-3 (NLT) ""Honor your father and mother." This is the first of the Ten Commandments that ends with a promise. 3 And this is the promise: If you honor your father and mother, "you will live a long life, full of blessing.""

Proverbs 29:15 (NLT) "To discipline and reprimand a child produces wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by an undisciplined child."

Proverbs 23:13-14 (NLT) "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. 14 Physical discipline may well save them from death."

Proverbs 22:15 (NLT) "A youngster's heart is filled with foolishness, but discipline will drive it away."

Proverbs 29:17 (NLT) "Discipline your children, and they will give you happiness and peace of mind."

Proverbs 13:18 (NIV) "He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored."

Proverbs 19:18 (NLT) "Discipline your children while there is hope. If you don't, you will ruin their lives."

Friends, it's time to return to the faithful exercise of loving, corrective parental discipline. By the way, new research challenges the spanking critics who have denied God's Word on the matter. Yes, even Americans as a whole, are coming to see that a return to parental authority and discipline is the right thing to do. In spite of the shrill cry of child abuse, spanking a child is no such thing as some foolish "experts" have tried to tell us. Yes, child abuse is wrong, but spanking is not one of them. A recent poll of more than 1000 Americans surveyed showed that 76% of them said that spanking was an effective form of discipline in their home when they were children [2]. In addition, Americans perceive lack of discipline to be the biggest problem in public education today according to a Gallup poll [3]. Yet critics for two decades have claimed that spanking is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations are now proving to be false and dangerously destructive to a child's growing season of life. Most of the so-called psychological studies proving parental discipline as harmful, now are showing up to be nothing more than "opinion-driven editorials, reviews and commentaries devoid of empirical findings" [4]. Amazingly, God's Word again is vindicated by time and experience.

But don't get me wrong, I have and would again any time physically restrain a child by pinning their arms, legs and head all at once. If a child cannot appropriately control their own limbs, I will do it for them while speaking in a calm voice, telling them that when they stop I will let go. I'm all for severe measures if they're needed; I don't shy from them. But spanking is unreasonable and unbiblical measure that unskilled disciplinarians take for lack of a better one.

Also, I was spanked as a child, and so I'm not ignorant of what goes on in kids' minds about it. It's just not effective in the long-run

http://aabss.org/journal2002/Hwang.htm

Parental permissiveness and laxness is the cause or prompter of such delinquent and aggressive behavior. In fact, children coming from homes with permissive parents are thirteen times more likely to produce delinquent and aggressive behavior than children coming from homes with overly strict and punitive parents. 

Among physicians, 59 percent of pediatricians and 70 percent of family physicians support the use of corporal punishment, although approval is greatest when it is used to correct dangerous behavior.

i don't deplore discipline. i deplore corporal punishment. i deplore it because it is immature, ineffective, and wrong. not very confusing.

There might be another reason for it.

Can't stay out of this one anymore... I disagree Kateliz. Spanking is appropriate and effective;.

It is.

hitting your child is something else and is unnacceptable. You are equating the two, and then drawing faulty conclusions as a result of your faulty assumption.

Isn't the first. You should read her posts on gun control.

[Prodigal Son]

again, to continue claiming that Jesus supports the corporal "discipline" of children is stubborn/ignorant. i have never read in the bible where Jesus hit anyone, let alone a child.

to have an opinion on an issue is okay, to refuse to alter that opinion when provided with evidence/studies/research (both biblical and secular) is foolish. remember, God called us to be humble and to walk in the truth.

research shows that spanking is harmful/ineffective. Jesus taught us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us." to continue to support/espouse spanking is to defy Jesus' teachings and to conform to false teachings.

as for the "spare the rod, spoil the child" verse. it should be noted that , although the rod could have been used for hitting, shepards used it to gently quide sheep and to protect them from predators. shepards never beat/hit their sheep.
"your rod and your staff, they comfort me." psalm 23:4

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp
http://www.stophitting.com/religion/
http://www.parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

if you hit a child, you have serious issues.

WWJD?

[kateliz]

When I was spanked it was done by a red-faced, overweight woman thundering at me down the hall with the wooden cooking spoon she used. I will be frank about that.

I understand the difference in methods of spanking, though, please don't get me wrong on that, but I still say that it's inappropriate. You do not need to cause physical pain in order to discipline. You should use, when applicable, natural consequence kinds of things. If they don't want to eat what you made for them, they go hungry. If they run across the street without looking or when they shouldn't have have, scare them by telling them just what could happen to them if a car hit them: they'd be hit *smack* (loudly clap your hands) and either flung several feet, falling hard, (the more details you include in this the better,) or rolled over by the car's tires. Explain the possible broken bones, the opened skin, comas, and anything else like that. Tell them the truth, and they'll get the picture.

It frustrates me how dumb people think kids are! This does them an injustice and keeps them dumber over the course of their life than they'd otherwise be. If they're too little to understand you telling them that, then they're too little to be held responsible for knowing to not cross the street. A three year old can understand you telling them they'll get seriously hurt and get appropriately scared!

As for the children who need to be pinned, I am not their parents. I can tell you that, dealing with kids from the kind of relationship I have with them, (I'm more of a friend figure than an authority like a daycare provider or teacher or, of course, parent,) they tend to throw out the full force of the disobedience the parents have allowed to form within them at me. They also do this, I've noticed with raised eyebrows, because they in truth love getting the discipline they haven't gotten from their parents. They throw their fit looking oftimes for that discipline, and after I've subdued them with a strong hand they get all smiley and cuddley and are as happy as can be! This is why they get that bad under my care. I kid you not. They need those walls to feel safe! The more I discipline them, the more they love me and are happy with me, in a deep-seeded way!

I still haven't seen biblical proof that God allows cororal punishment for kids. As Prodigal pointed out, the rod in that main verse that's used to support spanking means something other than what most people would think it would:

Proverbs 13:24
He who witholds his rod [Amplified "of discipline"] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Ryrie comments on this: "The use of a rod in punishment is also enjoined in 29:15. The discipline referred to here is training either by word (15:5; 24:32) or deed (23:13)."

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol [NIV "death].

Ryrie on 14: "Discipline may rescue a child from an untimely death."

Proverbs 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child who gets his won way [KJV and NIV "left to himself;" Amplified "left undisciplined"] brings shame to his mother."



Rod
sebet (Strong's #7626)

Strong's
"...from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:-- [multiplication of] correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe."

Vine's
"'tribe; rod' In modern Hebrew this word mainly denotes 'tribe' as a technical term. In Akkadian the related verb sabatu signifies 'to smite,' and the noun sabbitu means 'rod' or 'scepter.' A synonym of the Hebrew sebet is matteh, also 'rod' or 'tribe,' and what is applicable to matteh is also relevant to sebet [The "rod" matteh is described in Vine's as a symbol of authroity.]

The 'rod' as a tool is used by the shepherd (Lev. 27:32) and the teacher (2 Sam. 7:14). It is a symbol of authority in the hands of a ruler, whether it is the scepter (Amos 1:5,8) or an instrument of warfare and oppression: 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psalm 2:9; see reference Zech. 10:11). The symbolic element comes to expression in a description of the messianic rule: 'But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, ans reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth...'(Isa. 11:4).

The word sebet is most frequently used (143 times) to denote a 'tribe,' a division in a nation. It is the prefferred term for the twelve 'tribes' of Isreal (Gen. 49:16; Exod. 28:21). Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as the 'tribe': 'The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the Lord of hosts is his name'(51:19).

The Septuagint translations are: phule ('tribe; nation; people'), rabdos (rod; staff); and skeptron ('scepter; tribe')."

Brown-Driver-Briggs
"rod, staff, club, sceptre... tribe... rod, staff (evidently common article), for smiting... for beating... cummin... as (inferior) weapon... figuratively of chastisement: national... individual... shaft, i.e. spear, dart... shepherd's implement, club... used in mustering or counting sheep... truncheon, sceptre, mark of authority.. made from a branch... as symbol of conquest... tribe... especially of Israel... sg. of people (of Judah, late)... of subdivison of tribe...."



Physical Pain is Not the Biblical "Rod"

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)

This means that foolishness does not have to remain in the child. Correct discipline will take it away from the child. This implies that the child will gain knowledge from the discipline that will ward off the foolishness. How can discipline impart such wisdom? By being an effective teaching device.

Can physical pain used as discipline impart true wisdom? Wisdom so deeply understood that it wards off foolishness? I sincerely doubt it. My understanding is that if people use physical pain as a means of discipline, they use it as a deterant for bad behavior or attitudes. A deterant, even if seen as effective, cannot impart true wisdom. The foolish remain foolish, even if they may avoid a particular behavior or attitude, or even other behaviors or attitudes. They would be avoiding them, or restraining themselves from them, out of fear of punishment or respect for the punisher, not out of true wisdom about why they shouldn't do it. And so it is seen that physical pain as discipline does not meet the Bible's requirements for a rod of discpline.

Solomon taught us using his God-given wisdom and understanding will keep you from sin. This wisdom and understanding is the wisdom and understanding that needs to be imparted to our children as our form of discipline. Physical pain doesn't do this.

[ochotseat]

again, to continue claiming that Jesus supports the corporal "discipline" of children is stubborn/ignorant. i have never read in the bible where Jesus hit anyone, let alone a child.

You don't seem to comprehend the difference between spanking and hitting.

to have an opinion on an issue is okay, to refuse to alter that opinion when provided with evidence/studies/research (both biblical and secular) is foolish.

And the Bible and majority of physicians support corporal punishment, but you ignored the evidence.

I understand the difference in methods of spanking, though, please don't get me wrong on that, but I still say that it's inappropriate.

Did you see the biblical and medical evidence why spanking is acceptable?

Explain the possible broken bones, the opened skin, comas, and anything else like that. Tell them the truth, and they'll get the picture.

Again, spanking and hitting are not the same thing.

It frustrates me how dumb people think kids are!

Are you a teenager?
The average child knows right from wrong. If they continue to do something wrong in spite of this awareness, they need to be disciplined accordingly.

[Prodigal Son]

the article you posted is biased and full of bigotry. it nowhere near encompasses the opinions of experts, psychologists, medical experts, or the bible. you are choosing to ignore the evidence.

go ahead--hit children if you want. but give the real reasons why you choose to: it's a quick fix, it's easier than taking the time for real discipline, you're lazy, you don't know any better, it makes you feel powerful. but, please, don't say Jesus told you to because that's a downright lie.

[Prodigal Son]

i'd love to discipline you, ocho. you'd piss your pants.