Icthus wrote:
I also have a problem with the way you define patriarchy. Not that I'm defending it, but claiming that patriarchy exists just to give men power over women is profoundly untrue. Patriarchy developed for a lot of reasons, mainly social and economic, and given a comparatively primitive society, it certainly has its perks as far as keeping a country going. But really, if you think that the way women are treated in the Biblical codes is no different than in other ANE societies, then I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. The link I gave, for example, notes that in Israel, rape was always the fault of the rapist, whereas in other cultures, the victim could be blamed and even killed under the law. In Israel, you couldn't murder your wife because you think she's cheated on you. And your point that men could have all the women they want is simply wrong. Regardless of whether or not the Bible is sexist, it was far fairer than the rest of the ANE.
It think we should also note that, while many of the law distinguish between men and women, women do not have less worth as human beings created in the image of God.
First off, we are going to see things far differently because of the fact that you are looking at all these issues concerning discrimination against women from a male perspective. The only men that truly understand the discrimination and violation that women have suffered at the hands of men are male slaves, and men who have been raped by other men in prison. If you will notice all the people on this thread, and the other one I am on that are trying to justify, or deny sexism in the Bible are men. Women in biblical times had the same feelings of being violated by men as they do in modern times, we are all humans with deep emotions concerning our humanity and how we want to be treated. When others try and take that right away from us, and deny us the ability to fully experience our humanity it is wrong. It is especially devastating when the being that people call God instigates those acts of discrimination. When God allows a book to be written, that professes to be his word, giving laws and rules that keep women in subjugation to men...that god is not good, no matter how much better he is than what men do.
Patriarchy mainly developed because of men wanting control over women. Egalitarian societies worked just fine socially and economically, the reason for their downfall was because aggressive men wanted complete power and control over women and weaker men, instead of sharing all aspects of life equally.
The Bible should be more than just fairer than the rest of the ANE, because it is suppose to be divinely inspired. There is no question that people treat each other badly and deny each other human rights, but when God starts giving laws that discriminate against women and treats them unequally and unfairly, that's where the problem comes in. It's like saying it's was okay for the Hebrews to have slaves, because they treated their slaves better than anyone else in the ANE. No, it's never okay to own another human being.
Icthus wrote:I don't even know what you mean when you say "Even though Paul may have given women more rights than his fellow Jews did, women still were not given equal human rights, and that denial was sanctioned by the Hebrew God." The fact that women didn't get equal rights has nothing to do with whether or not God wants it, and I'm pretty sure you can't say that God sanctioned sexism in the NT times given that Jesus is God and he was pretty darn egalitarian. He had female disciples, a role only men were usually allowed to have. He treated some of the women in the NT with more respect that he gave to any of the men, and the first people he appeared to after the resurrection were women. When asked about marriage in heaven, didn't he say that there wouldn't even be gender there? I mean, regardless of whether or not the early Christians got over their prejudices and gave women the rights they deserved, it was pretty clear that Jesus didn't think less of them than he thought of men. In the OT times, God tried to straighten the Israelites out on a lot of things, but the laws he set up were provisional. Do you think that even if he said "treat women equally" that he would have been listened to? The Israelites had enough trouble worshipping only one God: is there any chance they would have turned around their entire worldview? The Mosaic Law is far kinder to women than other codes of its day.
It all depends on whether you believe in God or not. If you do then of course it's God's fault that women are denied equal rights, if you don't then it's just mans fault. As far as sexism being sanctioned by the Biblegod, it most certainly is even in the New Testament, and being pretty darn egalitarian doesn't cut it for God.
Why is it that my morals and values concerning equal human rights are so much higher than God's? I would never treat women the way God does because I know how women feel, and I know that it is wrong to deny people basic human rights, no matter what other humans do.
Icthus wrote:By the way, I'm not necessarily an inerrantist, especially concerning some of the earliest materials in the Old Testament. In my view, it is quite possible that the Mosaic Law contains elements from other law codes that were meshed in during or after the united monarchy. So using the OT to prove sexism isn't really going to work on me.
What do you make of the statement that Jesus made concerning the law:
Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Icthus wrote:What I think it really boils down to is your opinion on what is justified. If you think, as I do, that the OT Law is an imperfect code for an imperfect and rebellious people that works to better Israel gradually, then you probably won't have much of a problem with it. Then again, if, as you do, you think that the OT Law must, if it were true, perfectly represent the ideas of God, then you probably won't like it. I think contextualization removes a lot of the evil we tend to associate with it, but I can respect your opinion. The NT, though, which I believe contains, in Jesus, the fully revealed word of God, doesn't leave much room for doubt. Women are pretty explicitly equal to men in Jesus' ministry, even if society doesn't always allow this to be demonstrated. I mean, in Christ there is neither male nor female. That's kind of an undeniably clear statement of equality.
Anyway, I'm fighting again, and I really don't want to fight anymore, though debate is alway good. Take a look at the link and see what you think. It connects back to a broader series of articles on women in the Bible. I can't say I agree with everything it says, but it's worth a look, especially to contextualize some things.
It was fun reading over your article, by the way.
Denying women equal human rights is never justified. The biased and unequal treatment of women in the Bible did not help women to gain equal rights...it did the opposite. When men think they are justified in subjugating women, they are very reluctant to let go of their God given authority. It took nearly two thousand years from the time of Jesus, till women succeeded in demanding a equal place in the society they helped to build. Women make up half the population, and give birth to the other half, what right does any man have to tell a women that she should have anything less than full equality.
I don't like fighting either, but then I don't think we've been fighting, just discussing.
Glad you enjoyed my article,