The pre-trib doctrine was developed in the 1830's NOT before. Now if I was to subscribe to pre-trib as I don't, this is how it works:
Jesus has a "secret" 2nd coming and a resurrection of the "church" or we can say "chosen". Have you seen or read the "Left behind series?" It works like that. Anyway pre and post tribs do NOT disagree on that the resurrection of the "dead" which happens "after" the tribulation. See the "subtle" difference "church" vs. the "dead"?
My belief is based like this Daniel 12:1 and then Daniel 12:2, this is post-trib resurrection. The "chosen" or "elect" are gathered at the sound of the trumpet Matt 24:31 and happens "after" Matt 24:29, this also is post trib. A resurrection promise, John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 occurs at the last day = post-trib.Rev 11:15-18 pre and post-tribs agree on this one, that the resurrection happens "after" the tribulation. (interesting isn't it) 1 Cor 15:23 "at the coming of Jesus" 1 Cor 15:51,52 "mystery, twinkling of an eye" = post-trib. Rev 20:4 "after" =post trib. Again pre and post trib agree on this, Rev 19:20,21 = post-trib. 1 Thess 4:13-17 "at the 2nd coming" 1 Thess 5:2,3 = post-trib. 2 Thess 2:1-3 = post trib. So then my question is "when does the resurrection take place?" and, Where in the bible is there a resurrection "before" the tribulation?
Speaking of Matt 24 of "one will be taken and the other will remain" Matt 24:36-41. This has a parallel account in Gen 7:21-23. Of all the people in Genesis the ones that were taken "died" only Noah and his family "remained" Jesus said in Matt 24 "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be" ...pretty cool huh? When the bible says "all" will be caught up" I literally take that to mean what it says in plain words "ALL" both saved and unsaved.
Rapture timing?
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1stjohn0666
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Zionist
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Re: Rapture timing?
@1stjohn
yes, the pre trib idea of the rapture was popularized around 1830. i for one used to believe in the doctrine of the pre trib rapture like most believers now. i was tought these things at calvary churches and i took to it cuz i thought well my bible teacher and pastor must know but as time went on i started to question the doctrine. when i actually started to read the scriptures without anyone else's commentary or theology behind it and stuck to God's word i started to see it just didn't fit. i actually got angry that the churches i went to never touched on the notion that there were other interpretations outside of the pre trib idea. obviously anyone's view of the rapture isn't a salvation issue but i do feel a lot of fellow brothers and sisters buy into this doctrine without doing the research on it themselves. i take to the post trib doctrine because from my studies in scripture it just makes more sense and lines up with what Christ outlines. this verse pretty much sums it up and i don't understand how people twist it to make it out to fit a pre trib perspective 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3. but even though i ascribe to the post trib idea i do like to discuss why and how believers come to the conclusion they do and why. i also feel that people tend to down size the importance of end time events and the subject just becomes taboo amongst believers. they then take a it will happen how it will type of attitude but is that how God wants us to view what He has told us or would He want us to take the time and study the scriptures diligently to seek the answers. i believe He would want us to do the latter.
yes, the pre trib idea of the rapture was popularized around 1830. i for one used to believe in the doctrine of the pre trib rapture like most believers now. i was tought these things at calvary churches and i took to it cuz i thought well my bible teacher and pastor must know but as time went on i started to question the doctrine. when i actually started to read the scriptures without anyone else's commentary or theology behind it and stuck to God's word i started to see it just didn't fit. i actually got angry that the churches i went to never touched on the notion that there were other interpretations outside of the pre trib idea. obviously anyone's view of the rapture isn't a salvation issue but i do feel a lot of fellow brothers and sisters buy into this doctrine without doing the research on it themselves. i take to the post trib doctrine because from my studies in scripture it just makes more sense and lines up with what Christ outlines. this verse pretty much sums it up and i don't understand how people twist it to make it out to fit a pre trib perspective 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3. but even though i ascribe to the post trib idea i do like to discuss why and how believers come to the conclusion they do and why. i also feel that people tend to down size the importance of end time events and the subject just becomes taboo amongst believers. they then take a it will happen how it will type of attitude but is that how God wants us to view what He has told us or would He want us to take the time and study the scriptures diligently to seek the answers. i believe He would want us to do the latter.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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Zionist
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Re: Rapture timing?
Anyone care to chime in with their view on the rapture? i would still like to know others view on this subject and how they came to their view. Proverbs 27:17
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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Gman
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Re: Rapture timing?
Screw this rapture... I'll fly to Israel myself on El Al and beat everyone there..Zionist wrote:Anyone care to chime in with their view on the rapture? i would still like to know others view on this subject and how they came to their view. Proverbs 27:17
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: Rapture timing?
Gman, why would you fly to Israel and "beat" everyone there? I thought you loved the Jews. Just because they don't believe in the Messiah, that doesn't mean they need a beating!Gman wrote:Screw this rapture... I'll fly to Israel myself on El Al and beat everyone there..Zionist wrote:Anyone care to chime in with their view on the rapture? i would still like to know others view on this subject and how they came to their view. Proverbs 27:17
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Gman
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Re: Rapture timing?
No silly man...RickD wrote:Gman, why would you fly to Israel and "beat" everyone there? I thought you loved the Jews. Just because they don't believe in the Messiah, that doesn't mean they need a beating!Gman wrote:Screw this rapture... I'll fly to Israel myself on El Al and beat everyone there..Zionist wrote:Anyone care to chime in with their view on the rapture? i would still like to know others view on this subject and how they came to their view. Proverbs 27:17
What I mean is beat everyone there in the RACE to Israel. We are called to be protectors of the Jews as the commonwealth or Israel. Not replace.... They will triumph and not be beaten and we will see this through.. I'm not waiting for this silly rapture thing to transport me to Israel or some "safe" haven... I'm going to be pro-active.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Zionist
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Re: Rapture timing?
lol @ Gman. but in all seriousness the belief in the pre trib rapture does promote a division in the body whether one knows it or not. gentile believers and the jewish people are all one in messiah. to separate the body goes against the writings of the apostles. people tend to believe the church and israel are separate but in reality we are all one in the eyes of God. how can people belive the jews must suffer through tribulation when the church gets taken away from it? don't people see the examples God gives us through his word about going through tribulation being in the world? when yeshua comes we'll all live in israel, become a part with israel grafted into the tribe of judah through the blood of messiah. i know you know all this Gman just it does make me wonder why most believers today dont understand the hebrew roots of their faith. it just shines much more meanig on messiah and helps clear confusion in the many doctrines taught today.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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RickD
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Re: Rapture timing?
Gman, when you get there maybe you can start a new blog. You can call it..."Postcards from Palestine".Gman wrote:No silly man...RickD wrote:Gman, why would you fly to Israel and "beat" everyone there? I thought you loved the Jews. Just because they don't believe in the Messiah, that doesn't mean they need a beating!Gman wrote:Screw this rapture... I'll fly to Israel myself on El Al and beat everyone there..Zionist wrote:Anyone care to chime in with their view on the rapture? i would still like to know others view on this subject and how they came to their view. Proverbs 27:17
I'm not waiting for this silly rapture thing to transport me to Israel or some "safe" haven... I'm going to
be pro-active.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Gman
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Re: Rapture timing?
Yes, I believe this rapture thing is there to make believers complacent. Sitting back on a sofa and waiting for Scotty to beam them out of trouble. Sorry, as we can see from Biblical history all the believers had to go through trial and tribulation. That's just the way it is...Zionist wrote:lol @ Gman. but in all seriousness the belief in the pre trib rapture does promote a division in the body whether one knows it or not. gentile believers and the jewish people are all one in messiah.
Exactly Zionist..Zionist wrote:to separate the body goes against the writings of the apostles. people tend to believe the church and israel are separate but in reality we are all one in the eyes of God.
Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
We know now from scripture that we are to bond WITH Israel and not replace it (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24). We better be part of the commonwealth of Israel since G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13). If not we are in deep doo doo..
Part of the problem we have now however is convincing Jews that we are with them.. Unfortunately the division between christian and Jew is too great.. I hate to say this but I think we are screwed..We were suppose to defend our Jewish brothers but our four fathers blew it.. Now there is no trust..
I think however that the blindness is slowly lifting.. Now we see baby Yeshua Hebrews springing up all over the place wanting to protect Israel and Judah..
I don't think Pharaoh is going to be too happy about this re-enactment of Exod. 1:8-14. Absolutely 100 percent correct. I'm with you... We graft into Israel to protect and create the buffer.. When we start practicing Torah, naturally we will fall into Israel's plot and Her enemies will become our enemies. But I think our ultimate goal is to defend Judah.. She will be surrounded by her enemies with no one to protect her.Zionist wrote:how can people belive the jews must suffer through tribulation when the church gets taken away from it? don't people see the examples God gives us through his word about going through tribulation being in the world? when yeshua comes we'll all live in israel, become a part with israel grafted into the tribe of judah through the blood of messiah. i know you know all this Gman just it does make me wonder why most believers today dont understand the hebrew roots of their faith. it just shines much more meanig on messiah and helps clear confusion in the many doctrines taught today.
But no more holocaust for Judah... NO MORE. If these calculations are correct, then we should be next on the chopping block.. I'm sorry to say....
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: Rapture timing?
Sorry amigo I can't do that.... There is no Palestine.. Only postcards from Israel!!RickD wrote: Gman, when you get there maybe you can start a new blog. You can call it..."Postcards from Palestine".
Shema ISRAEL.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: Rapture timing?
Israel, Palestine, same thing. Six of one, half dozen of the other.Gman wrote:Sorry amigo I can't do that.... There is no Palestine.. Only postcards from Israel!!RickD wrote: Gman, when you get there maybe you can start a new blog. You can call it..."Postcards from Palestine".
Shema ISRAEL.
I agree, G. That's what got me away from believing in a pre-trib rapture. God doesn't promise believers will avoid tribulation. He does promise we will avoid His wrath, however.Gman wrote:
Yes, I believe this rapture thing is there to make believers complacent. Sitting back on a sofa and waiting for Scotty to beam them out of trouble. Sorry, as we can see from Biblical history all the believers had to go through trial and tribulation. That's just the way it is...
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Gman
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Re: Rapture timing?
RickD wrote: Israel, Palestine, same thing. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Ahh ahh ah. They are not the same thing. I think I can agree to that too.. We will be safe in our Sukkah..RickD wrote:I agree, G. That's what got me away from believing in a pre-trib rapture. God doesn't promise believers will avoid tribulation. He does promise we will avoid His wrath, however.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Re: Rapture timing?
Maybe Zionist and/or G-man could explain Revelation ch. 7? The way I see it there is a separation: 144,000 Jews are sealed on earth (this does not include the Jews who are not sealed) and a great multitude clothed in white that nobody can number in heaven.Gman wrote:Yes, I believe this rapture thing is there to make believers complacent. Sitting back on a sofa and waiting for Scotty to beam them out of trouble. Sorry, as we can see from Biblical history all the believers had to go through trial and tribulation. That's just the way it is...Zionist wrote:lol @ Gman. but in all seriousness the belief in the pre trib rapture does promote a division in the body whether one knows it or not. gentile believers and the jewish people are all one in messiah.
Exactly Zionist..Zionist wrote:to separate the body goes against the writings of the apostles. people tend to believe the church and israel are separate but in reality we are all one in the eyes of God.
Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
We know now from scripture that we are to bond WITH Israel and not replace it (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24). We better be part of the commonwealth of Israel since G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13). If not we are in deep doo doo..
Part of the problem we have now however is convincing Jews that we are with them.. Unfortunately the division between christian and Jew is too great.. I hate to say this but I think we are screwed..We were suppose to defend our Jewish brothers but our four fathers blew it.. Now there is no trust..
I think however that the blindness is slowly lifting.. Now we see baby Yeshua Hebrews springing up all over the place wanting to protect Israel and Judah..
Absolutely 100 percent correct. I'm with you... We graft into Israel to protect and create the buffer.. When we start practicing Torah, naturally we will fall into Israel's plot and Her enemies will become our enemies. But I think our ultimate goal is to defend Judah.. She will be surrounded by her enemies with no one to protect her.Zionist wrote:how can people belive the jews must suffer through tribulation when the church gets taken away from it? don't people see the examples God gives us through his word about going through tribulation being in the world? when yeshua comes we'll all live in israel, become a part with israel grafted into the tribe of judah through the blood of messiah. i know you know all this Gman just it does make me wonder why most believers today dont understand the hebrew roots of their faith. it just shines much more meanig on messiah and helps clear confusion in the many doctrines taught today.
But no more holocaust for Judah... NO MORE. If these calculations are correct, then we should be next on the chopping block.. I'm sorry to say....
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Zionist
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Re: Rapture timing?
@ 1harpazo
i will most certainly do so but are you willing to listen if you believe in the pre trib rapture? i find most people i encounter who believe in the pre trib rapture close their minds off when discussing this topic. i am always willing to share what the Lord has shown me but only if the person is willing to put all theologies aside and open their eyes to see and ears to hear.
i will most certainly do so but are you willing to listen if you believe in the pre trib rapture? i find most people i encounter who believe in the pre trib rapture close their minds off when discussing this topic. i am always willing to share what the Lord has shown me but only if the person is willing to put all theologies aside and open their eyes to see and ears to hear.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
Re: Rapture timing?
No, I don't hold the pre-trib view, I'm in the pre-wrath camp. There won't be a division of those who follow Jesus whether they are Jew or Gentile, but there will be a separating of believers and unbelievers, even unbelieving Israelis. Having said that I would like to read what you have to say. I'm not close-minded except to the pre-trib view.Zionist wrote:@ 1harpazo
i will most certainly do so but are you willing to listen if you believe in the pre trib rapture? i find most people i encounter who believe in the pre trib rapture close their minds off when discussing this topic. i am always willing to share what the Lord has shown me but only if the person is willing to put all theologies aside and open their eyes to see and ears to hear.