Morality Without God?

[Spock]

Because it didn't happen?

The Bible says it happened. If this is the point you are disputing, you need to explicitly explain why by addressing what the Bible actually states.

If God wanted them "wiped off" the face of the planet, He certainly didn't need Israel for that (see: Sodom and Gomorrah).

Good point. And if God had done it himself rather than commanding the Israelites to do it for him then we would be dealing with a different question, namely, the question of the morality of the Creator wiping out his creatures as in the Flood or Sodom and Gomorrah. That would allow apologists to argue that God is free to do such things, and so the conversation would devolve into vain philosophy with no resolution. That's why I focus on issues that are not so ambiguous, such as the command to kill every man, woman, and child of the Amalikites, the Midianites, and the Canaanites.

But this question if off topic for this thread which is supposed to be about morality without God. It would be best to discuss genocide in a thread devoted to that question. I have presented by argument for a foundation of objective morality without God. I would like to pursue that question. Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread? Do you agree with Dr. Craig's assertion that objective morals are "obvious" and that "we all know it"? Do you think that is a sufficient foundation for his moral argument for God?

[PaulSacramento]

The Bible says it happened. If this is the point you are disputing, you need to explicitly explain why by addressing what the Bible actually states.

Where does the bible say that all the men women and children were wiped out?

As for the "question of morality" of the creator wiping out His creation, WHO on Earth is qualified to answer much less judge THAT ??

[PaulSacramento]

That's why I focus on issues that are not so ambiguous, such as the command to kill every man, woman, and child of the Amalikites, the Midianites, and the Canaanites.

The only issue is that it was NOT as "ambiguous" or "straight forward" as that since, obviously that is not what happened.
What it does seem to be is an ex maple of ANE writing in which typical expressions are used to convey the since of magnitude of an event.

[Spock]

The Bible says it happened. If this is the point you are disputing, you need to explicitly explain why by addressing what the Bible actually states.

Where does the bible say that all the men women and children were wiped out?

Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

As for the "question of morality" of the creator wiping out His creation, WHO on Earth is qualified to answer much less judge THAT ??

We are talking about a BOOK written by humans that claims God did things. Any reader of the book is qualified to judge if those claims represent moral acts. For example, suppose the Quran said that Allah gave Muhammad an 9 year old girl to be wife. Are you qualified to judge if that action attributed to Allah is moral?

[Spock]

That's why I focus on issues that are not so ambiguous, such as the command to kill every man, woman, and child of the Amalikites, the Midianites, and the Canaanites.

The only issue is that it was NOT as "ambiguous" or "straight forward" as that since, obviously that is not what happened.
What it does seem to be is an ex maple of ANE writing in which typical expressions are used to convey the since of magnitude of an event.

I am familiar with the proposed explanation, but it is neither "obvious" that it is correct nor is it widely accepted, and it introduces new problems of interpretation. If we are free to reject the truth of such statements, what remains "plain and obvious" in the Bible? If nothing is "obvious" then how can we be sure of the validity of any interpretation?

[Spock]

Because it didn't happen?

If God wanted them "wiped off" the face of the planet, He certainly didn't need Israel for that (see: Sodom and Gomorrah).

This line of argument is off topic for this thread because it is supposed to be about "morality without God." It would be best to discuss genocide in a thread devoted to that question. I have presented by argument for a foundation of objective morality without God. I would like to pursue that question. Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread? Do you agree with Dr. Craig's assertion that objective morals are "obvious" and that "we all know it"? Do you think that is a sufficient foundation for his moral argument for God?

Note: I am repeating this here because I had edited a previous post to add this comment and I think it went unnoticed.

[Butterfly]

Why don't Christians believe that the Koran is true? Because they use their reasoning and logic to reject its claims. People do this all the time, so why shouldn't the same standards apply to discerning whether or not claims the Bible makes are valid or true?

The truth or lack there of regarding the Koran is not based on whether we like it. I agree reasoning and logic should apply. Of course let's keep in mind to that to promote logic and reasoning means we are presupposing there is a standard outside of ourselves. Saying you reject the Bible because you don't like is not a logical argument.

There are some things in the Bible where I say, "God, I'll just have to trust that Your ways are above my ways and Your thoughts beyond my thoughts." I suspect that in some cases, that will always be.

I never said I rejected anything because I didn't "like" it, I said "Because they use their reasoning and logic to reject its claims." . See the highlighted and underlined "reason and logic", that has nothing to do with whether or not I "like" something or not. PLEASE, if you are going to quote me...do so accurately!

Why would one trust that God's ways are higher than theirs, when they have proven through logic and reason that the Bible is untrustworthy?
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[RickD]

Just reading Deuteronomy 2:34, it looks like you have an argument, Spock. I went back and read all of Deuteronomy chapter 2. Without going further back, It's not as plain as you make it out to be. Since I'm at work, and don't have time right now to get into this, I'll leave this article which I think gives a proper context, and explanation to why the women and children were killed:God and the Canaanites

If generation after generation of the Canaanites were practicing evil, what was there to stop the next generation from the same evil. Is anyone arguing against the killing of the women?( because the women were practicing the evil too). Well, read the article. It gives a plausable explanation to why the children were killed. Remember how utterly evil the Canaanites were. Temple prostitution, child sacrifice, etc.

Spock wrote:
So let's get to the heart of the issue. Please present your case that there was no genocide commanded by God or executed by Israel.

The article also shows that the charge of "genocide" was unwarranted by the very definition of genocide.

[Butterfly]

That is correct, just because I don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong...but, really that is not the issue here. The only way we humans have of discerning whether something is true, or valid is to use our reasoning and logic.

Why don't Christians believe that the Koran is true? Because they use their reasoning and logic to reject its claims. People do this all the time, so why shouldn't the same standards apply to discerning whether or not claims the Bible makes are valid or true?

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You mention the Koran. I don't believe the Koran to be true because, having read it and studied it with a Muslim friend that is a teacher of the Koran, I found it to NOT be in line with what I see in the universe.
Of course that is 100% subjective and it most certainly works for MANY people.
When I read the bible and THOUGHT I understood what I was reading, I did not like it or agree or anything.
When I read the bible under the imporession that I KNEW what it was, I didn't like it or agree with it.
BUT never did I NOT see "reality" in it, in fact I did, I see perhaps TOO much and that is what bothered me.

That my friend is the point. When one reads the Bible they do see "reality" in it...that is what is so bothersome. We try to measure the biblical standards against our own and they fall far short.

So, I opened myself to the writings of those that knew far more about the0 bible than I did.
I learned what it was, what it wasn't, how it was made, why and to whom it was written.
I learned about genres and things like "context", "Historicity" and "accommodation" and things began to make sense BUT I still didn't like what I read.
So I asked the HS to guide me and to help me see, NOT because I wanted to believe in it (the bible still does NOT hold the place as Word of God for me)but because I wanted to understand it for what it was/is.
Do I still have issues with some parts? Yes of course but NOT because they happened, but because they had to happen.
When I stopped thinking that the bible should be this, that or the other thing, that it should contain THIS and nothing of THAT, that is when I began to see the truth in the bible and as the saying goes, the truth is ugly sometimes.

When I was a Christian I too ask the tough questions of the HS, and the answers I got is what ultimately lead me out of Christianity. It seems you were lead one way and I was lead another. When I opened my eyes and saw the ugly truth that the Bible contained I realize I could no longer believe in its God.
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[RickD]

Butterfly wrote:
When I was a Christian I too ask the tough questions of the HS, and the answers I got is what ultimately lead me out of Christianity. It seems you were lead one way and I was lead another. When I opened my eyes and saw the ugly truth that the Bible contained I realize I could no longer believe in its God.

Rose, are you saying that the Holy Spirit showed you that The god of the bible is not the true God? That's confusing me. Because before, you said that when you were a Christian, you believed Jesus was God. So, Jesus is God, but the Jesus in the bible is not God? Is that what you're saying. Which Jesus is God? I'm confused.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Just reading Deuteronomy 2:34, it looks like you have an argument, Spock. I went back and read all of Deuteronomy chapter 2. Without going further back, It's not as plain as you make it out to be. Since I'm at work, and don't have time right now to get into this, I'll leave this article which I think gives a proper context, and explanation to why the women and children were killed:God and the Canaanites

If generation after generation of the Canaanites were practicing evil, what was there to stop the next generation from the same evil. Is anyone arguing against the killing of the women?( because the women were practicing the evil too). Well, read the article. It gives a plausable explanation to why the children were killed. Remember how utterly evil the Canaanites were. Temple prostitution, child sacrifice, etc.

Good article Rick.
Is it just me or does this passage refer to the action as a decision of "we" being the Israelite people and not God, as far as I can see this was not a decree from God but a decision of the Israeltes to slay those in the town. It's says they went to the towns and destroyed them, they did not pursue them across the countryside, we have no idea of how many non-combatants were killed it could have been many or it could have been very few, either way it is far from genocide and if the people were as debauched as the Bible says the judgment by an all knowing, all powerful and all present God would be a just action.

[RickD]

Just reading Deuteronomy 2:34, it looks like you have an argument, Spock. I went back and read all of Deuteronomy chapter 2. Without going further back, It's not as plain as you make it out to be. Since I'm at work, and don't have time right now to get into this, I'll leave this article which I think gives a proper context, and explanation to why the women and children were killed:God and the Canaanites

If generation after generation of the Canaanites were practicing evil, what was there to stop the next generation from the same evil. Is anyone arguing against the killing of the women?( because the women were practicing the evil too). Well, read the article. It gives a plausable explanation to why the children were killed. Remember how utterly evil the Canaanites were. Temple prostitution, child sacrifice, etc.

Good article Rick.
Is it just me or does this passage refer to the action as a decision of "we" being the Israelite people and not God, as far as I can see this was not a decree from God but a decision of the Israeltes to slay those in the town. It's says they went to the towns and destroyed them, they did not pursue them across the countryside, we have no idea of how many non-combatants were killed it could have been many or it could have been very few, either way it is far from genocide and if the people were as debauched as the Bible says the judgment by an all knowing, all powerful and all present God would be a just action.

Daniel, if you read Deuteronomy 2, it seems pretty clear, at least to me, that God is giving the command, to Moses.

[Butterfly]

So now genocide is not defined as the slaughter of every man, woman, and child of a given group of people? Please quote a dictionary that agrees with your novel definition of genocide.

Please specify where in the Bible it talks about God condoning genocide, sometimes the text is predictive not presciptive or hyperbole.

As far as I am aware only combatants were ever killed and only after many warnings to leave or join the nation of Israel.

Here is a video of Bill defending so called genocide acts in the Bible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOgSxv37SbE


Dan

Here is a few verses for starters:

Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

Num.31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deut 7:2-3 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 2:33 And Yahweh our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Josh 6:20-21 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith Yahweh of the Armies, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.



I'm not sure where William Lane Craig got his information from in the video, but it sure wasn't from the Bible.

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[Danieltwotwenty]

We are talking specifically about genocide, why those verses, they are not all specific to genocidal acts. The only applicable one is the deuteronomy verse which we have already been discussing.

[RickD]

So now genocide is not defined as the slaughter of every man, woman, and child of a given group of people? Please quote a dictionary that agrees with your novel definition of genocide.

Please specify where in the Bible it talks about God condoning genocide, sometimes the text is predictive not presciptive or hyperbole.

As far as I am aware only combatants were ever killed and only after many warnings to leave or join the nation of Israel.

Here is a video of Bill defending so called genocide acts in the Bible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOgSxv37SbE


Dan

Here is a few verses for starters:

Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

Num.31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deut 7:2-3 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 2:33 And Yahweh our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Josh 6:20-21 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith Yahweh of the Armies, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.



I'm not sure where William Lane Craig got his information from in the video, but it sure wasn't from the Bible.

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Rose, have you really looked at the context of all those verses you posted? Honestly? Because, anyone can say God condones genocide, and google "does God condone genocide", and voila! bible verses out of context, to make your case.

Out of the verses you posted above, I only looked at the context of Deuteronomy 2:33, and I found that God was just in commanding them to be killed, because of their sin. I'm guessing that if we look at the context of the rest of the verses, we'll see very sinful people who are getting fair justice. Be honest. I'm starting to think you have an agenda now. I just see you making a claim that God justifies genocide, then you post verses without context. That's not honestly searching, IMO.