Trinitarian Theology

[1stjohn0666]

Elohim is a plural noun, never a complex noun. Elohim can mean God or Gods but never three in one God.

That response displays ignorance of and provides no rational explanation for the multiple instances in which Elohim as a plural noun is coupled with a singular verb.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... lohim.html

The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g., see Gen. 1:26). However, considering the Hashalush HaKadosh (Trinity), the form indeed allows for the plurality within the Godhead.

"when coupled with a singular verb" Elohim is god.
Elohim "gods" Exodus 23:13, Deut 4:28, Deut 5:7, Deut 6:14, Deut 7:4 ... etc. The structure of the language allows Elohim to be either god or gods.

[secretfire6]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).

Any time during Creation, but especially in making living beings. Are not we the spirits that make living beings alive? What do the Angels do then? They don't create and they existed before man was ever around, so what was their purpose before the fall when they became either an enemy to us or messengers and helpers? Did the Angels evolve on different planets in a similar way we did here on earth? Are they just other human spirits that have made it back to God long ago? If they are evolved spirits then what did they start out as and where? have they always been spirit beings or have they also incarnated and lived physical finite lives? I know, so many questions haha but this is how my brain works. I need to know or I go crazy all day thinking about it any scriptures tell us about Angels? I can't really think of any that set them up as different from us other than being more matured and evolved spirits.
What is the hebrew word for Angel in OT and what does that word mean? In Greek I think it's Angelos which means "messenger"

[PaulSacramento]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).

Any time during Creation, but especially in making living beings. Are not we the spirits that make living beings alive? What do the Angels do then? They don't create and they existed before man was ever around, so what was their purpose before the fall when they became either an enemy to us or messengers and helpers? Did the Angels evolve on different planets in a similar way we did here on earth? Are they just other human spirits that have made it back to God long ago? If they are evolved spirits then what did they start out as and where? have they always been spirit beings or have they also incarnated and lived physical finite lives? I know, so many questions haha but this is how my brain works. I need to know or I go crazy all day thinking about it any scriptures tell us about Angels? I can't really think of any that set them up as different from us other than being more matured and evolved spirits.
What is the hebrew word for Angel in OT and what does that word mean? In Greek I think it's Angelos which means "messenger"

The word angel means messenger.
Any messenger of God is an angel.
The bible doesn't go into much detail about angels of course, why would it? it is about US not them.
They were around before OUR world came to be and they are our "guardians" and "helpers" and "guides", they protect Us and, when they have to, punish Us as per God's command.
They are what we shall "evolve" too in the future.
You need to go outside the "canonical" writings for some views on the angels, but take that with a grain of salt AND reconcile what we do have in the bible.
They are from a different dimension/universe than ours, they are in the dimension we call "heaven".
There are fallen ones like Satan and they want the glory and reverence owed to God for themselves.
In the past that have passed themselves off as "gods" to take away from the One True God, their glory is our fallen state.
Some suggest they pass themselves off as aliens now since we seem to be more "receptive" to THAT message now, like ancient man was receptive to "gods".

[Struntzizzle]

My small group and I are reading through the gospels and we are having trouble wrapping our heads around the trinity. My interpretation is that God (three persons in one) splits a part of himself upon the reincarnation of Jesus here on Earth. Then Jesus is reunited with the Spirit upon baptism where now two of the three persons exist here on Earth, still separated from the Father. Then the death and resurrection of Jesus allows God to be whole again. I had a question, we see throughout the gospels that Jesus prays to God the Father. Why does Jesus pray to God the Father when they are in fact one in the same. That is kind of like talking to yourself in the third person. What are your guys' thoughts?

[1stjohn0666]

Elohim when used of God and the singular verbs to denote "one" I, he, him..etc. God is never a "they" however there are the 4 "us" texts in the bible. Gen 1:26 "let us" but in Gen 1:27 makes it clear that one creator is creating and confirmed by Jesus.

Still confused on the trinity I see.

Yes Rick, it is difficult to follow

[1stjohn0666]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).

It is implied that in Gen 1 "God created the heavens and the Earth" Heaven being first I would assume that the Angels were created prior to man. Job also has a fitting statement that Angels were before men in creation.

[B. W.]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).

It is implied that in Gen 1 "God created the heavens and the Earth" Heaven being first I would assume that the Angels were created prior to man. Job also has a fitting statement that Angels were before men in creation.

Angelic beings are not equal with God nor were they fashioned in God's image either...
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[1stjohn0666]

So my main question is: in the beginning, during creation, were the Father, the Word and holy spirit the only parts of God there? Were the angels and all of us there too? Are we the "us" and "our" that Genesis records in connection to making mankind?

Which part of creation?
When the universe was created, there was only God but when the Earth was created, the angels existed already.
Angels were NOT part of the creative process of Earth, angels have no creative powers at all, they are, like we will be, "evolved" spirit beings but NOT God(s).

It is implied that in Gen 1 "God created the heavens and the Earth" Heaven being first I would assume that the Angels were created prior to man. Job also has a fitting statement that Angels were before men in creation.

Angelic beings are not equal with God nor were they fashioned in God's image either...
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I am only saying that the Angels were present at creation for God to say "let us" then move on to what God was doing. I do not subscribe that God was some freak of nature or even "essence" (scripture never dictates God is an essence) that we all are created in some sort of way already diagnosed with some schizophrenia of a type .... maybe a divine schizophrenia


I am really 3 people conversing with myself.... OMG
@Paul I am really kidding on some of this post, I attempted to put humor and attack on the post itself not you directly.
I do appreciate when you present your posts, they ARE thought provoking and worth a bit to look at. I might not except the trinity doctrine (for now) "I am" still a believer
Peace

[RickD]

1stjohn wrote:
I might not except the trinity doctrine (for now) "I am" still a believer

John, again, one doesn't need to completely understand the trinity to be a believer. But, one surely has to believe in the Jesus who is God in the flesh. A merely human Jesus, like the one you believe in, is a false Jesus. A Jesus who doesn't save. So, until you believe in the only Jesus with the power to completely save you from your sins, then you're not a "believer".

[PaulSacramento]

My small group and I are reading through the gospels and we are having trouble wrapping our heads around the trinity. My interpretation is that God (three persons in one) splits a part of himself upon the reincarnation of Jesus here on Earth. Then Jesus is reunited with the Spirit upon baptism where now two of the three persons exist here on Earth, still separated from the Father. Then the death and resurrection of Jesus allows God to be whole again. I had a question, we see throughout the gospels that Jesus prays to God the Father. Why does Jesus pray to God the Father when they are in fact one in the same. That is kind of like talking to yourself in the third person. What are your guys' thoughts?

It is important to understand that the term "God" does NOT refer to the NAME of God, but is a "title" of sorts, like saying human.
IF Jesus was/is human because of his human birth and because of his self-proclaim title of "son of Man", then He is God by virtue of his being begotten of God and of being Son of God.
Son of Man = Man, Son of God = God.
Jesus and His Father are NOT "one in the same" in terms of distinct persons, they are one in the same in Nature.
God = name of the nature of the supreme being we call God.
Human= name of the beings we call humans.
If you think of God as the name of the "species" perhaps that helps, but keep in mind that NO OTHER being of that "species" exists other than the being we call God.
If there was only ONE human, he would be called Human.

There is NO reason to believe that the "species" we call God is NOT a "triune" being, a being that while having 3 distinct personalities, shares the same nature and is ONE in terms of substance.
Remember, that "species" is NOT material or corporeal but pure "conscious energy".

[PaulSacramento]

@Paul I am really kidding on some of this post, I attempted to put humor and attack on the post itself not you directly.
I do appreciate when you present your posts, they ARE thought provoking and worth a bit to look at. I might not except the trinity doctrine (for now) "I am" still a believer

I am not a big fan of the Trinity doctrine myself, simply because it can cause more confusion that help, it can indeed be a stumbling block in the search for God.
I don't think that man can ever adequately describe God or even understand God, that is why Christ came to us because, in Him, the fullness of God was shown and shown in "human terms".
To see Christ is to see God, to love Christ is to love God, to serve Christ is to serve God.
Beyond that understanding and acceptance is just debating theology and Christology.

[B. W.]

I am only saying that the Angels were present at creation for God to say "let us" then move on to what God was doing.....

Look at these verses….

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me." NKJV

Isaiah 45:18. "For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other." NKJV

Isaiah 46:9, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me." NIV

Now read:

Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." NASB

If the Us refers to created Angelic Beings, then the above verses make no sense and are not true. Why - because if these were angelic beings, then that would make them equal to God to be included in the Us statements. Therefore there would be literally other gods formed classed as part of the Us. 1stJohnny, have you thought about this with any actual thought or are you just a dictation machine?

Next, the reflection (Image/likeness) God designed mankind to be is for starters, being able to exercise dominion (albeit on a limited scale) limited to this earth by the use of intelligence and reason under a reflection of similitude of how God governs the whole of creation. In other words, dominion equals ruling by reflecting God’s attributes limited to this earthly realm. We are still created beings, fashioned to govern over life on earth.

The Us does not imply one is a god or in god class but rather God reflecting his character traits onto Adam and Eve so that they govern this world created by God correctly. Man fell into sin by wanting to be another God. Next, the US refers to how we were fashioned – we were fashioned as a tri-natured being all of one essence as well too.

You have flesh/bones, Liquid, and bio-electrical components that make you of one essence. These three agree as one and cannot live without the other. Nether component is the same nor has the same function and attributes. Each has their own nature, attributes, and function. Do you deny this about your own makeup – can’t you see it? Yet you deny the Tri-nature unity of the Godhead, who is Spirit (John 4:24c)? This Evidence of the Godhead is reflected within us too all part of the Us mentioned in Gen 1:26..

God is Spirit as John 4:24 states. So what does Spirit look like? Why can’t God’s Spirit likewise have three self existing functionaries that makes God’s one essence live? Do not our tri-parts cause us to function and live as one essence? Then, why can’t God?

There is none like God, God says about himself. Therefore his Spiritual essence is unlike our physical essence in that each of God’s is capable of independent self existence, functions, and, attribute; each make up God’s one essence and each is capable of self existence because God is the living God. See Jeremiah10:10 - Dan 6:26 - Psalms 42:2

Our own blood is different than our body, our thoughts are different from our blood and body, yet, these three agree as one in order for human beings to actually live and exist. God is Spirit, and we were fashioned as a reflection of God’s tri-nature being, albeit on limited physical and spiritual scope as well as functions so that we can govern our limited sphere of influence correctly as one living entity in our world and for our world.

Why can’t God? So 1stJohnny – are you greater than God and judging God wrongly? Showing contempt for God by calling him schizophrenic? You think you can escape such mocking of God’s divine nature and get away with it?

Isaiah 46:5, "With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?" NIV
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[PaulSacramento]

I agree with BW, there is no way to reconcile the "US" in Genesis 1:26 with angels since they were NOT involved in the creative process ( other than as spectators and, after, as guardians).
The US must then be applied to Father, Son and HS.

[1stjohn0666]

1stjohn wrote:
I might not except the trinity doctrine (for now) "I am" still a believer

John, again, one doesn't need to completely understand the trinity to be a believer. But, one surely has to believe in the Jesus who is God in the flesh. A merely human Jesus, like the one you believe in, is a false Jesus. A Jesus who doesn't save. So, until you believe in the only Jesus with the power to completely save you from your sins, then you're not a "believer".

I believe in the 100% mortal human divinely begotten in the womb of Mary son of "the only true God". Where the first Adam failed, which was human. The last Adam (Jesus) did not, who also was human (unless man does not mean man) Jesus had to die for the remission of our sins. To say Jesus is God\man and only part of Jesus died, it would seem that only parts of my sins were washed away. To say the one true God died for us is to say the immortal God is really not immortal and destroy a part of scripture as I see it.
That trinity thing has been a discussion for almost 2,000 years. I do attend services with my wife at her church, which is trinitarian. I accept the fact that I am among believers, just with differences in Christology and maybe some other issues of doctrine. Trinitarians and Unitarians both say we believe in one God.
The bible is not some coded message for us to try and figure out who someone is. Jesus is the son of the living God, Peter answered the man Jesus correctly and was commended.

[1stjohn0666]

Of course Angels did not do any creating nor are we or the angels equal with God. Gen 1:26 has a following text that has one creator creating Gen 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.